Justin please clarify your “new” meaning of the word liberal just so we are all clear.

Perhaps you should read more news and market news.  Coca-cola just had a settlement with the EU for unfair trade practices, now this is off the top of my head.  If you want coke products you can’t sell any other brands including local brands. Low prices is not the only way to squash competition.  Lordklegg’s Megacorp buys up the mortgage on the prorerty your business or your prime suppliers business to presure people.  Do you honestly believe that say, Microsoft uses only low prices to corner a market?  If only the world were that black and white.

warbi:

What Scalia is quoted as saying, is basically what he wrote as his dissent in the 10 commandments case in KY, the one that was struck down.  I fail to see how you arrive at Scalia is a liar though.  You may disagree with the model he suggests, but his history is good.

The following examples of traditional mix of government officials making reference to religion:

1) George Washington added the words “so help me God” to the presidential oath;

2) The Supreme Court under John Marshall opened its first session with a prayer and continues to do so to this day;

3) The first Congress opened with a prayer and continues to do so to this day;

4) The same week that the 1st Amendment was submitted by Congress to the states, it hired chaplains for the House and Senate;

5) The day after the Bill of Rights was proposed, the very same Congress suggested a day of prayer be recognized by the President to acknowledge the “many and signal favours of Almighty God.“;

6) Shortly thereafter President Washington offered the first Thanksgiving Proclamation;

7) The same Congress also reenatcted the Northwest Territory Proclamation, which in its text provides: “Religion…..being necessary to good government…shall forever be encouraged.“

8) Washington opened his Inagural Address with a prayer and closed it by saying: “reason and experience forbid us to expect that the National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.“

9) President John Adams wrote to the Mass. Militia: Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.“

10) Jefferson concluded his 2nd Inagural Address by inviting all to pray with him.

11) James Madison opened his Address with a prayer as well.

It is after these examples that Scalia then goes onto cite as continuing examples of religion intertwined with government.  It is here that he cites the coinage and the Pledge.  The speech he gave followed the same format, although the article doesn’t make this crystal clear.

Scalia may be many things, but ignorant of the facts he is not.  Furthermore, I personally find it offensive that you refer to ANY Justice as a liar.  I disagree vehemently with Justice Ginsburg on many issues, the same is true with Justice Souter and Justice Stevens.  However, I would never engage in rhetoric that calls into question their honesty or intelligence.

These men and women are some of the best and brightest minds that this country have.  They outclass you, Warbi, and me, with their intellectual prowess by much more than a country mile.  I respectfully request that all of us, whether we agree or disagree with them, give them the respect that they not only deserve, but for which they have most assuredly earned.

Coca-cola just had a settlement with the EU for unfair trade practices, now this is off the top of my head.

Whoa, no one was being forced to drink or stock coke! Those cafes have freely negotiated an exclusive deal with Coca-Cola. If Coke were an inferior product then willingly tying their fortunes to it would be suicide. A better interpretation would be that pepsi was getting their butt kicked and used the government to break good faith contracts. This forces cafes to maintain inventories in twice as many products and pass that costs onto consumers.

Lordklegg’s Megacorp buys up the mortgage on the prorerty your business or your prime suppliers business to presure people.

And they have the same legal contract as the company they bought it from. They can’t steal your home the way the government can with eminent domain.

Do you honestly believe that say, Microsoft uses only low prices to corner a market?  If only the world were that black and white

Do you honestly believe that if Macs had been historically the same price as or cheaper than PCs that Microsoft would still have won?

Then how do you explain his comment about the motto on US coins?  It obviously was not put there by the founding fathers, yet he seems to set great store by it.  You have yet to explain how he can make these remarks and either not be disingenuousor unknowing of the salient facts.
  You do mention a great number of instances of mixing religion and government.  To me the most clear-cut example of what their intent was is found in the Treaty of Tipoli, Article 11, which was unanimously approved by Congress on June 7, 1797:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

  In addition here are further quotes:
1.  From Madison, considered the main architect of the Constitution:

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

  What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.

  From Franklin:

If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England.

  From Paine:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. 

  Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity.

  John Adams:
[qoute]I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved—the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!

The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

“. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.

Consi: But that is offpoint really, as is the little tirade about licensing, which if you don’t like it, don’t contract as a licensee.

Consi: The following examples of traditional mix of government officials making reference to religion:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

The point of my licensing tirade was about how some corps that are out for the buck at any cost will fuck you any way they can, be it restrictive licensing, taking your land by ED, monopoly, elimination of fair use, etc. 

Justin: Do you honestly believe that if Macs had been historically the same price as or cheaper than PCs that Microsoft would still have won?

Whoever had the software selection consumers wanted would have won.  Like VHS and Beta - all the movies were on VHS.

Justin (and generally to free-market purists), absolutist positions have a rocky history in human events.  In general you and I are in agreeement that the market is sufficient to govern most economic transactions.  But as a society we have repeatedly made the decision to live with some inefficiency for noneconomic reasons.  This is honorable and fair, though the debatable point is where to draw the line.  That is, once it is agreed that it should not be drawn atop the starting line.

Reducing economics down to 1 simple rule reveals the hope for an economic “theory of everything.“  Such a rule, if it exists, is arbitrary.  Efficiency isn’t everything, and in some cases it has to be considered in a larger context (efficiency of this transaction or system vs. that of the society as a whole.) 

Just as an example - the Americans with Disabilities Act isn’t a freemarket act.  Absolutists might say; “Do away with it.“  I would say, “Try to find a middle ground between brutal efficiency and an impractical and absurd utopia.“

So long as we draw lines there will be disagreement as to “where,“ but absolutism is no bargain.

Whoever had the software selection consumers wanted would have won.  Like VHS and Beta - all the movies were on VHS.

Not to take this even further off topic, but that’s not an accurate analogy. VHS won because the machines were cheaper. Every title that was available on VHS was available on Beta, for the same price. I was managing a video rental and sales store at the time and was a heavy supporter of beta because it was a superior product.

Every title that was available on VHS was available on Beta, for the same price.

My bad.  I thought that selection was part of the reason.  I knew player price was.

We had an RCA video disk player, and by the time they stopped pressing movies for it, VHS was already on top.

[/non-sequitor]

Ragman: My bad. I thought that selection was part of the reason. I knew player price was.

A lot depended on when you came into the store. My dad was talked into buying a Beta player even though it was a bit more expensive because he was sold on the higher picture quality aspect (along with other superior design decisions). Of course the salesman knew which way the wind was blowing and within a couple of years, we couldn’t purchase Beta format movies anywhere.

Had he been a typical consumer (or instead, living in Japan) he could have been enjoying new releases for decades.

That italics tag really needs to be closed soon, btw. It’s all your fault DOF!

I didn’t see any runaway italics but I do remember accidentally reversing a bracket a ways upstream.  Here goes…

Did that help?

nope

try again

Brock, are you using IE?  I had not seen any runaway italics (in Firefox,) but when I opened this thread up in Internet Explorer, there it was, starting with my comment from 1:02 pm on 6/26… italics all the way down, mocking my HTML. 

Firefox seems to handle it gracefully, stopping the italics and rendering it like this:

... freedoms against them?< They ... (with only the word "them" in italics.)

I’m sorry, Internet Explorer users.  If only I’d been using as crappy a browser as you do, I’d have seen my error earlier. But from what I can see, entering close-em tags just above did fix it.  The italics showing in IE come to a halt just after “Here goes…“ Les, my apologies - I broke your blog with my horrible typing.  Can you reverse that bracket and save everyone’s eyeballs?

Brock, it may not be DOF’s doing. This is beta software and there may be a bug or two about. I saw the runaway italics in DOF’s original reply as well, but when I checked the database he had closed it properly. I did a page refresh and since then it’s been gone.

Thanks, Les, but I still see the runaway italics in IE 6.0.2900.2180.xpsp_sp2_.gdr.050301-1519… which the way Microsoft codes, could also be thought of as beta software (and not in a good way, like Beta tape.)  I must have at least left in a partial tag from a cut-and-paste error or something.

It does stop where I entered a close-em tag as a comment above.  I’m going to stop typing now and go have strawberries and ice cream so I don’t mess up any more pages!

Oh yes I’m only 15 but I vaguely remember. Those laws were good. Yup. Isn’t living in a capitalist country just great

Well, your age is showing, Boss. That decision has nothing to do with capitalism.  Taking land away from people for the public good is more Socialist/Communist than it is capitalist. Check up on your history, kiddo.

Taking land away from people for the public good is more Socialist/Communist than it is capitalist. - Karen

If it is taken FOR the public good I agree with you Karen, but taking a person’s home to build a Wal Mart does not necessarily fill that bill. When private land is confiscated to be given or sold to a for-profit industry I would agree with Bo$$ that this is indeed capitalist in nature. For the good of the people = Socialist. For the good of business interest = Capitalist. The determination of socialism or capitalism is not in that private land was confiscated, it is how it is then distributed and to what use.

No matter how pro-business you are can you not see the that a government that is supposed to be of, by, and for the people that is instead selling them down the river for the benefit of the ultra rich is in dire need of correction? This government that is tipping to the oligarchs is flavored with a dash of fascist tendencies and a smattering of theocratic zeal.

I am reminded of the line in A Bug’s Life when Hopper was telling the other Grasshoppers that: “Those puny little ants outnumber us a hundred to one and if they ever figure that out there goes our way of life! It’s not about getting food, it’s about keeping those ants in their place…“ No matter how bad things get in this country, we must always remember that we outnumber them. We outnumber them by a whole lot.

decrepitoldfool: Brock, are you using IE?

Sure, blame it on my browser. I didn’t know there was another browser to be had. I thought Microsoft owned the game. Just because you SAY there’s another browser…

So will this other browser you speak of do pron?

Les: Brock, it may not be DOF’s doing…I did a page refresh and since then it’s been gone.

Hmmm, I still see three quarters of the thread in italics. Must be my crappowappy browser. It’s kind of annoying though because I don’t even speak Italian.

Let’s try something…Tell me if the next person’s comment is in Italian again.

Les, maybe you could set the comment template to end everyone’s comments with close-tags for common HTML tag couplets.  They should be invisible in browsers and would prevent crappy typing like mine from carrying over to following comments.

BTW the strawberries were really good.  Mmmmm… 

OK, I double checked with IE and it’s definitely still happening in that browser so I went and rechecked DOF’s comment and found the problem. Should be fixed now.

heh-heh-heh

Back on topic, for this type of ED, would the company be required to make an offer to the property owners first, then getting the local Man to invoke ED if they refuse?  Or, could they just go straight for the ED if they find some local Man willing to whore out?

decrepitoldfool: Les, maybe you could set the comment template to end everyone’s comments with close-tags for common HTML tag couplets.  They should be invisible in browsers and would prevent crappy typing like mine from carrying over to following comments.

That’s a great idea, DOF!

I also think Les should have everyones comments end with “That’s what I think and you should listen to me because I crap candy”.

It would bring balance to the comments, I think.

Sorry, I got off topic again but

That’s what I think and you should listen to me because I crap candy.

Les: This is beta software and there may be a bug or two about

That alone puts it at a higher quality level than Microsoft.

I’ve suspected that at M$, alpha was what was put into the compiler, beta was what FINALLY compiled, and release was anything that didn’t crash the cd duplicator.

That’s what I think and you should listen to me because Brock craps candy.