Including how to comfort those who have lost loved ones.  “S/He was only a collection of molecules, that’s all you are, & you will never have contact with him/her again.

How’s about “At least they’re not suffering any more.“  Or, “So and so was a great person, and lived a wonderful life.“  ??

I can’t imagine what there is to meditate on if there is nothing greater than myself…

Ah, but as for greater than yourself—how about all of humanity?
Humanity is pretty cool, you gotta admit.  I know a lot of humans do nasty things, but on the whole, humanity—I am in awe.

SS, yes, as I said, you have found my weak point, many Christians tell me I make 3 year olds look good at Chemistry.  I just would rather read.  I LOVED Kant & Descartes, but not enough to follow their advice I guess.  I like fractals & chaos theory insofar as I mathematically understand them, but when I have to remember #s & letters & equations from the periodic table I’m lost, Although I’m sure it reveals much more about the character of God.  The Quaker writer Richard Foster is one of my favorites…& he’s what really motivated me into meditation…Yes. most analogies in human language on this planet suck ass, so you’re right about the legs part, but to continue with the analogy, I guess I would call faith (in Truth) the “Red Bull” that helps you realize you have wings, so the legs aren’t the only tool you have for getting around anymore.  So I guess I don’t understand what you mean by fear of logic, I don’t want people to tell me that’s all I am, is my brain & ability to think when I’m in great turmoil or what you call the “dark night of the soul.“  I have corrected & changed many of my beliefs, especially in college.  I think (like Descartes pointed out) that while it is helpful to doubt one’s foundations for a period, if I we were to continually in a state of doubting their foundations & the ground they walk on, it wouldn’t be very productive…The cycles of times I doubted & struggled were amazing, but they are very personal & I think everyone has to go through it for themselves, so I don’t explain much because I don’t think my experience is the same, although I can relate to others who have also struggled, questioned & thought.  I just can’t relate or don’t see atheists/ignostics going through the same thing.  They either never seriously considered the possibility there is a God because they don’t see compelling evidence or they are angry with the possiblility of God having certain characteristics or even at events in their own lives.

Someone’s typing Lord, kumbaya…

Humanity is pretty cool, you gotta admit.  I know a lot of humans do nasty things, but on the whole, humanity—I am in awe.

I’m with you, shana.  But don’t forget them platypuses.

Humanity is pretty cool, you gotta admit.  I know a lot of humans do nasty things, but on the whole, humanity—I am in awe.

Indeed. When we want to, us humans can be an amazing bunch capable of great things and legendary feats. It is my awe and admiration for the good that humanity is capable of that compels me to rant and scream and yell at the people who insist on being idiots because it’s easier or it benefits them more to be so. Most folks aren’t literally stupid, they’re willfully ignorant. Granted, we can’t all be Einsteins, but a lot of us could be doing a better job of utilizing they grey matter between our ears.

Most folks aren’t literally stupid, they’re willfully ignorant.

Ain’t that the truth?

I just can’t relate or don’t see atheists/ignostics going through the same thing.

Open your eyes, and your mind.  You’d be quite surprised.

They either never seriously considered the possibility there is a God because they don’t see compelling evidence or they are angry with the possiblility of God having certain characteristics or even at events in their own lives.

How do you think most atheists (and agnostics) arrived at the conclusion that they would identify themselves as such?  I’m willing to bet most atheists have done quite a bit of “soul-searching” and in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary, allowed for many years the possibility of the existence of God.  But possibility is one thing, and probability quite another.  Some of us are unwilling to pin our hopes on, or dedicate our energies toward things that are certainly possible, but so improbable that they are unworthy of further consideration.   

In fact, the possibility of the existence of gods can in some instances prove to be a hindrance to our motivation to help our fellow human beings.  Members of one or another religion are less apt to help someone whose beliefs they feel are “wrong” than they are someone who subscribes to their own worldview.  Or at the very least, their assistance comes with the strings of an attempt at conversion attached.

If anyone’s still interested in the original topic of this thread they can find a great source of info here...

Is America really one nation under God? Not according to Pulitzer Prize–finalist Jacoby (Wild Justice, etc.), who argues that it is America’s secularist “freethinkers” who formed the bedrock upon which our nation was built. Jacoby contends that it’s one of “the great unresolved paradoxes” that religion occupies such an important place in a nation founded on separation of church and state. She traces the role of “freethinkers,“ a term first coined in the 17th century, in the formation of America from the writing of the Constitution to some of our greatest social revolutions, including abolition, feminism, labor, civil rights and the dawning of Darwin’s theory of evolution. Jacoby has clearly spent much time in the library, and the result is an impressive literary achievement filled with an array of both major and minor figures from American history, like revolutionary propagandist Thomas Paine, presidents Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Robert Green Ingersoll.

Teacher sues to include religious beliefs of founding fathers Nov 25 2004.  here is a page updating this story.  April 2005 3 of 4 charges were thrown out as “wasting the courts time”.

http://www.eriposte.com/philosophy/fundamentalism/stevenscreek.htm

And another couple of updates:

From 12 August 2005:

The teacher whose discrimination lawsuit thrust Cupertino’s Stevens Creek Elementary School into the national debate over religion in schools has withdrawn his case, with both sides agreeing to dismiss all claims.

No money will be exchanged, since both sides agreed to cover their own legal expenses. No school policies were altered.

“With a little bit of luck, Stevens Creek will be out of the spotlight, and I hope it stays that way,“ said parent Richard Crouch, expressing a widely held hope in a community upset at being characterized as anti-religious in publicity over the lawsuit.

Fifth-grade teacher Stephen J. Williams sued Cupertino Union School District’s superintendent, the school board and the school principal last year, claiming that district officials singled him out because of his Christian faith when they restricted his use of historical documents with religious references.

District officials vehemently denied the claims. The settlement agreement, filed in federal court in San Jose on Thursday, restates the district’s existing policy that ``allows teachers, no matter what their religious beliefs, to use appropriate educational material, (including supplemental handouts of historical significance) during instructional time that has religious content—so long as it is objective, age appropriate, and in compliance with curriculum.‘’

Williams and his attorneys could not be reached for comment Thursday night. Mark Davis, the lawyer representing the district, said terms of the settlement forbid either side from filing future claims based on the complaint.

The agreement specifies that both sides, when asked about the case, should say the matter has been resolved to the satisfaction of all parties.

The case was next due for a hearing in October. A federal judge in April threw out three of the lawsuit’s four claims, including one alleging the district violated Williams’ free speech rights.

Williams’ suit, and his appearance on a cable television political program, fueled a media frenzy that rocked the Stevens Creek community. Sheriff’s patrols were increased around campus when the school logged hundreds of phone calls soon after the broadcast, most from people outside California in support of Williams.

And from 17 August:

The fifth-grade public school teacher who embroiled Cupertino in a highly publicized battle over religion in schools has resigned.

Cupertino Union School District officials received Stephen J. Williams’ resignation Monday, according to spokesman Jeremy Nishihara. He said there would be no other comment from the district. ``It’s a personnel issue,‘’ Nishihara said.

Williams, who taught at Stevens Creek Elementary, had sued Cupertino Union School District’s superintendent, the school board and his school principal last year, claiming that district officials singled him out because of his Christian faith when they restricted his use of historical documents with religious references. But the suit was settled, with district policies intact, last week.

Williams could not be reached for comment on the resignation. Officials at the Alliance Defense Fund, which supported Williams in his lawsuit, also could not be reached for comment Tuesday.

``I hope he finds a place more in line with what he really wants to do,‘’ said Nathalie Schuler Ferro, spokeswoman for a parents’ group that supported the district. ``He seems to have a great passion for what he wants to teach, and I commend him for that.

``I think there is a place for him in a more religiously inclined school.‘’

Isn’t it amazing that this caused such a media frenzy and furor when Williams first filed suit—and yet now that he LOST (which we KNEW he would), there’s hardly ANY media coverage at all?

Damn.

Good riddance, there is no place for such insanity in public schools.
It is a shame we can not cull them all out.

All you need do is read the evidence from the case itself in the eRiposte article listed above to see very clearly that his case was bullshit.

Take note just who was making all the threats on peoples lives, the name calling, the lunacy, ALL came from Fundamentalist Christians.
The manure he was trying to pass of as History was nothing but the usual Christianized version which is all quotes out of context or outright fabrications.

THIS is what the school was trying to stop, not taking god or Christianity out the class, just taking the pure bullshit out.
He was clearly proselytizing a bunch of lies.

He & the ADF should be made to pay every penny the School had to shell out which is needed taxpayer dollars to fight this crap.

my name is amoxil and i say: wtf with you ppl ?

Ahh, the next wave in spamming: humans with keyboards.

It’s gone now. Just for the record, folks who host their sites on those “free 50MB webspace” servers will probably find that they’ve been blacklisted here at SEB. Those damn sites tend to be breeding grounds for these spammers so I end up banning the root URL and being done with it. Apologies to anyone who this inadvertently blocks, but it’s getting so out of hand that it has to be done.

Man you people are dense. He wasnt evangelizing. He was teaching a “FACT” in American history. I thought thats what you were all about. The facts. The FACT is that this nation was founded by Christians who came here because they didnt want to be persecuted for their faith. You guys have a very hard heart and most if not all you will probably take it to your grave. Sad indeed.

You’re ignorance is showing again. Go study up a bit more on history and then try again.

From stevenscreekparents.org:

Anyone who honestly thinks this is part of a debate about free speech is naive. Steven Williams, or more accurately, his political allies, claims his free speech rights were violated. Mr. Williams, a Christian, was prevented from using in his classroom such gospel tracts as “What Great Leaders Have Said About the Bible.“ If police had prevented Mr. Williams from handing out the same tract on a street corner, I’d be the first to come to his defense. When his supervisor tells him to stick to the approved curriculum and omit the gospel tracts, that is entirely another matter. This is just a garden variety workplace policy issue, a waste of a court’s time and the school district’s attorney fees.

Anyway. For anyone looking for an update…

Meggi: The FACT is that this nation was founded by Christians who came here because they didn’t (sic) want to be persecuted for their faith.

Some people who came to the US were English people who went to the Netherlands for religious freedom but the Dutch thought they were a troublesome pack a bastards too. So they gave them a boat which was supposed to sink in the middle of the channel but they made it to Plymouth where they were given another so they could piss off.
I’m getting off track.
Fact. Those Pilgrim Fathers were settlers still under the control of the English Crown in America in about 1620.
Fact. They didn’t actually ‘found’ your US of A.
Fact. That was instigated in the late 1700s by the founding fathers who were definitely not xian. Your mob would have been called them atheists by today’s standards.
You see Meggi, this is where your learning took a plunge; from the truth all the way into the mire of xian fabricated bullshit which is cool coz xians have had much practice in the fabrication of bullshit and the less well-read suck it in as truth - you are the proof.
I went to a public school.

My ancestors were Puritans from England. They arrived here in 1648 in the hope of finding greater restrictions than were permissible under English law at that time.

— Garrison Keillor