Gods…  I’m repeating myself now.

Ellie accuses me of having a biased opinion and taking quotes out of context…

Founding fathers, excluding Jefferson (who was an elitist, racist, mysogonistic in my humble opinion,) contrary to Spocko’s biased opinion quotes based in little facts & quotes out of context, though not devout or fanatic, took Judeo-Christian beliefs for universally held common sense.

ellie on 11/25/04 at 09:43 PM

So, yeah ok, let’s just forget the author of the DOI ‘cause he didn’t truly mean it when he wrote “all men are created equal” since he was just a horny slave owner. I guess his opinion, and Washington’s too, doesn’t matter.
Jefferson is THE founding father of this nation and I take none of his words out of context.

Thomas Jefferson

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on a man.“

“The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.“

“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.“

“In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.“

“Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.“

“History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.“

Clearly Jefferson does not think much of this thing called Christianity!
I don’t believe the other “fathers” held much reverence for this so called “Judeo-Christian common sense” either. Since you don’t value the words of Jefferson(!) how about more from Madison?

James Madison

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial.  What have been its fruits?  More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.  Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy.  … What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society?  In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.  … we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, “that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence.  … Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?  that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment [of a particular religion as the official state religion], may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever? (1785; in an argument in Virginia’s General Assembly against proposed legislation to require a three-pence tax for support of religious education, in arguing his case Madison had to out-argue the greatest orator of the day, Patrick Henry, and he successfully out-argued Henry and the legislature did not approve the proposed tax)

“Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history” “In the Papal System, Government and Religion are in a manner consolidated, & that is found to be the worst of Govts.�?

“Prior to the Revolution, the Episcopal Church was established by law in this State. On the Declaration of independence it was left with all other sects, to a self-support.  And no doubt exists that there is much more of religion among now than there ever was before the change; and particularly in the Sect which enjoyed the legal patronage.  This proves rather more than, that the law is not necessary to the support of religion.“

“The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment’”

And some more of my favorites…

Thomas Paine

“I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).“

John Adams

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?“

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for reeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.“

“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved—the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!“

“What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagonloads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the ‘index expurgatory’, the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine.“

Benjamin Franklin

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.“

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.“

“Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another.“

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.“

No, I do not see any of them espousing the “universal common sense” of Judeo-Christian beliefs in any way whatsoever. These are intelligent men of course. Belief in gods, demons, miracles, life after death, or any other superstitious nonsense is for children (no matter their age) and should, certainly, have no influence on the government of the people.

This teacher is the one taking meaning out of context. He, like many others, is not just trying to proselytize, he is using the words of the “Founding Fathers” against them. I’m sure Jefferson is turning in his grave with such teachers in the classroom and an Administration such as the one currently in office. This is not a Christian nation and is in no way based on Christianity.

And again, I think it’s very important to teach, at an early age, the fact that this nation was the first to be founded by the authority of “We the People” not some god or king.

If you can’t fire an idiot like this then confine him to gym class or lunch duty or something! Do fools like this really think they can’t get away with trying to re-write history?

Tho not truly a “Founding Father”, I’ll leave you with…

Abraham Lincoln

“The bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.“

“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.“

zilch - again, I reread it, & I don’t see what you’re talking about.  The Supreme Court decided his suit had no basis (I know this from having read more) because God was non-specific, & the child was only forced to stand, not to repeat it herself.  Trust me, from a court that sympathizes with gay marriage, that’s kind of a difinitive “this guy’s a wacko.�?

What DID you read, exactly?  As nowiser pointed out, SCOTUS basically pussed out and refused to hear the case on a technicality.  Going directly to the source - the man’s own website - would have quickly given you that information.  Instead it looks like you’re parroting something you read on WND.  Your original post was predicated on something that’s been shown to be a white-washing of the true story, spun to outrage Christians and feed their need to feel persecuted.

Personally, I have no problem with teachers wearing crosses or believing what they want to, it’s their right as Americans.  I DO have a problem with their beliefs being woven into the history lessons of grade-schoolers and presented as “proof” that America was founded as a Christian nation.  Especially after they’ve been reprimanded for proselytizing already.

Witchfire, if we are saying the same thing, great!  I had misunderstood you to be saying that it wasn’t appropriate to discuss the wide range of founding fathers’ beliefs at all with 10-year-olds.

In a semi-related matter, our local paper ran a letter to the editor that said “Bible more important than the US constitution,“ which has resulted in a couple letters to the contrary, and today a whole slew of letters to the affirmative.  Along with (predictably) a number revealing “the truth” about the founding fathers as all devout Christian men.

Sigh.  If you repeat it often enough…

No, I do not see any of them espousing the “universal common sense�? of Judeo-Christian beliefs in any way whatsoever. These are intelligent men of course. Belief in gods, demons, miracles, life after death, or any other superstitious nonsense is for children (no matter their age) and should, certainly, have no influence on the government of the people.

That the Christian Right is systematically twisting history to advance their version of the founding of this nation, and trampling all over the Constitution in the process makes me angry; that the government is complicit in such dumbing down of school children is a fucking outrage.

Our Constitution was crafted by men who lived in the Age of Enlightenment, yet the Reconstructionists would prefer we return to the Dark Ages and acknowledge that there’d just be no America the Beautiful if the invisible sky fairy hadn’t had a hand in it.

To my knowledge, dissent, revolution and rebellion aren’t high up on the list of desirable traits in Christians.  Good Christians would never have risen in rebellion against their King, who ruled because he was supposed to be God’s choice.  How can anyone in their right mind possibly consider Jefferson, Madison, Franklin or any of the others devout Christians?  Were they such men of faith, I think the founding documents would be chock-full of Jesus-talk - yet the closest thing in the DOI is “creator” and the Constitution’s sole nod to divinity is the “year of our Lord” in reference to the date.

It’s a crime against our children to allow them misled about the founding of their nation - it’s a crime against humanity to aggressively pursue more and better ways to mislead them.  And that’s what I see the Christian Right doing.

Spocko - You DA MAN!!
Nice post!

Wow, Spocko.  When you attach *pictures* to the quotes it really puts them in context…because they were obviously men who never thought anything through or changed their minds.  Any complex sbject they thought about can be easily summed up in one short, simple quote, that was never altered or affected by anything else that happened in their long lives.

Nice show Spocko!  It is tiring to watch the fundamentalists attempt to reconstruct the history of this country in the same fashion they have reconstructed their own religion.

Who knows, maybe Jesus changed his mind and we can disregard his words also. 

Upon further reading on this topic of the teacher, it runs out that the incident that started this whole mess was a question in regard to the ‘Pledge of Allegiance”.  One of Williams’ students had inquired as to why the words ‘under God’ were in our pledge and Williams responded in the normal ignorant fashion that ‘the country was founded under God’ and that was reasoning behind the inclusion of the words.

A parent, upon hearing of this misconstrued history being presented in the classroom, complained to the school and Williams was subsequently warned.  After a second undefined incident of this nature occurred, Williams lesson plan was subjected to review before presentation.

All this guy is doing now is wasting school district monies to garner a pulpit to present his beliefs.

that was never altered or affected by anything else that happened in their long lives.

That falls far short of proving Spocko wrong. In particular, it doesn’t speak to their intententions when founding the US.

I’m not really concerned with proving anything.  y’all are intelligent people who can research & form your own opinions.  I’m just explaining my own views.  If you have no interest in understanding, then by all means, ignore me!  It frustrates me that I’m labeled closed-minded or delusional when I don’t agree.  Those are personal attacks, not persuasive arguments.  Spocko didn’t exibit an understanding of their biographies & interpersonal relationships, which is what I generally give more value.

The explaination of the pledge sounds fine to me.  The fact that the kids would even ask that question smells of a set-up by parents.  & if not, then their kids really are obscenely ignorant, even for the age of 10.

As for Jesus, His death & resurrection were His teaching, so unless he decides to go back to being dead to me, I’ll continue to work with Him…

quote[Wow, Spocko.  When you attach *pictures* to the quotes it really puts them in context…because they were obviously men who never thought anything through or changed their minds.  Any complex sbject they thought about can be easily summed up in one short, simple quote, that was never altered or affected by anything else that happened in their long lives.]/quote
Ellie, Your sarcasim and apparent inability to accept any view that differs from your own, especially a view that has abundant evidence and facts behind it, helps to prove my theory: the strongest human motivation is fantasy. Facts are boring. When you have invested that much effort in some belief, it becomes a part of you and your strong emotions blind you to any other view. Try to divest yourself of the emotions and review the information with an open mind and make an informed decision. Most of us have a great deal of trouble doing that, and fifth grader even more so.

& wow. leguru has provided me a perfect example of what I’m referring to.  I am not ignoring what they have said, but simply feel that in light of the fact that I’ve called God a few names & struggled with inconsistencies a few times, I still work out a relationship with Christ out in my life, as I see several (maybe not even most) founding fathers doing.  But now that you’ve insulted me & put me down, I see the error of my ways & feel like sharing even more with you!