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Now, to your point, your argument rests on the idea that God can’t do two things at once, that God is somehow limited to helping either the guy with the car keys or the molested child.

Actually no it doesn’t, maybe I should have clarified the child being molested wasn’t a ‘righteous christian’, my whole point being that the premise is that God will nip over and help the righteous find their car keys, whilst ignoring the unrighteous or those ignorant of Christianity despite the apparent greater need, and also despite his professed unbiased care of all.

Personally I don’t think God answers prayers at all, as you rightly pointed out he wouldn’t be limited to one at a time, so to uphold his own standards he would either help all or none.

For the record I am a pagan and do not believe in the god of the bible, although I do believe in a greater spirit being, am I going to discuss my beliefs further? No.

*Should be “they“ . Even dictionaries can accidentally leave out a letter. I feel better about my mistake in my earlier post and demand you reinstate my “A”

You’re right…I’ve made several mistakes and you haven’t ragged me…you get an A-.  But to get an A+, you’ll have to write a 25 page term paper on the greatest accomplishments of the Bush Administration!  I have a feeling you’ll just stick with the A-

Bipolar Disorder is not the same as DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) but I understood the intent of your put-down nevertheless

Hell dude it just looked good…I don’t know the difference between the two!  How could I turn Brock into DID :?

I have yet to find a site more expansive and relevant than this one.

Someone notify the media…Brock and I agreed on something again…that’s twice in two weeks!  I think we should call NASA and ask if the Earth’s orbit has been altered or if the Sun is about to smash into the Earth.

Damn you Serai for interrupting a perfectly good (yet ridiculous) exchange of “ideas” between Brock and I.  I’ll forgive you though and add that I agree with the prayer thing 100%.  If two devout guys are up for a job promotion and both pray equally hard, who gets it?  One guy needs it to rain because his lawn (garden to you) is dying and another guy wants fair weather because he’s going fishing…who wins? (My money is on the fisherman).

This made me think seriously about my faith, and taken in context with the scriptures that say God is impartial and we are all precious to him it opened my eyes to how *****bogus these claims are

Bogus is not the word…I don’t even have a word for it.  Apparently we are all precious, but some of us are used as “props” in this grand play called Life.  He gives Grandma and Grandpa Alzheimer’s so their lives and their children’s’ lives become a nightmare, but the faith of the children is tested.  He conversely gives little kids fatal diseases to test the faith of the parents and of course AIDS is punishment for homosexuality.  It’s also punishment for hemophilia and blood transfusions, which I’m told the JW consider “consuming blood”, so they are also bucking god’s law and are feeling his wrath.

And of course the greatest example that life is “stage play” is the Israel /Palestine production, The Intifada. This play stars the Israelis as the chosen ones, with millions of Palestinian “extras”.  God tells Israel they are to inherit the Promised Land and the Palestinians amazingly take exception to that.  Can you believe that?  I mean the Palestinians really need to get it together, because this is God’s plan…didn’t they read the script?  Somebody needs to talk to their agent.

Boy if I had two kids and significantly favored one over the other I wonder what would happen?  If I gave my favored child land and resources and gave nothing to the other child, I don’t foresee any trouble … there wouldn’t be any animosity between the two.  Is this Israel/Palestine thing Bible prophecy or self-fulfilling prophecy?  I tend towards option 2.

**nudges back off topic ** Serai, I preferred the Anglicisms. Daft and rubbish are great words.

Now, to your point, your argument rests on the idea that God can’t do two things at once, that God is somehow limited to helping either the guy with the car keys or the molested child.  He’s not.  Bad things happen because people have free will and use that free will to do bad things. Some guy rapes his daughter and this is God’s fault?  Did He say do that?  Do you want God to zap the molester with a lightning bolt?  Do you want Him to zap everyone who does something wrong?

Brock: Are we on the “why do good things happen to bad people, and bad things to good people” thing?  Man, this is an old argument, and thus you have earned yourself some old-style, fire-and-brimstone protestantism as an answer:

1. Because life is tough.  There are no guarantees.  You’ve been raised up out of dust and to dust you will return and in the meantime God owes you nothing. You are entitled to nothing but six feet of earth.  Because men are whiny, vain, rebellious fools who richly deserve suffering and death.  Because God looks in hearts and sees our true motivations and finds us pathetic in our fantasies, petty ambitions, backbiting and selfishness.  He despises us as you despite a vicious, disgusting, hairy spider [or choose an animal you find repulsive] held over a flame, but in His mercy He restrains Himself from destroying the lot of us.  That’s why bad things happen.

2. We get ourselves into our own messes.  Men make the decisions that create the (social) world we live in, for good or for ill, and we have to live with the consequences or reap the benefits. You reap what you sow ... God is not mocked. Correct and holy are the judgments of God!

Take home: We should be thankful for anything good that God gives us.  The story of Hurricane Isabel is not that some died, but that anyone survived. Because He could destroy us all, or many more if He chooses.  But in His mercy He waits to see if we’ll admit that we need Him to make our free will work to any good effect.

There could be a simpler answer, too: In the words of Q, don’t explore outer space if you can’t handle a bloody nose.

Here endeth the sermon. Enjoy your day.

*Waves her anti troll stick* Begone you’ll get no morsels here….

what stops you from commiting suicide? what possible hope do you have? Your life is completly useless from your perspective. All you’ve got are a bunch of smart ass comments, and a website to make them on. All you do is argue, your probably thinking something up right now against this comment. Can’t you ever take anything to heart?
joking aside,
I pity you.

Serai, I think I have a sort of English sense of humor, don’t you?

Hehe of course I do, my last post wasn’t in bad humour at all, in fact I find the whole potatoe potato thing quite hilarious really. If I was mad at you or anyone else for poking fun at the English it’d only be due to the fact that we can poke fun at ourselves so much better. =P

Serai, we’ll make a Valley Girl out of you yet, and IB BILL, though I guess you won’t read this, you mistakenly thought I said YOU lost the argument. I was joking with Mild Bill and pretending that since your names were so similar,  he was really both of you. Get it? I have since come to realize that you likely are two separate people (or at least one and a half.) Don’t go away bored! You still have some valid questions to answer, if you’re game. If you are game (not that there’s anything wrong with that),keep in mind that nobody really loses on here…or wins for that matter.
Serai, I think I have a sort of English sense of humor, don’t you?

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

I’m going to have to set aside a partition on my HD for all the Doctor’s episodes BBC will be making available and I’ll be downloading

I wouldn’t feel so moved to disagree with JethricOne and Daryl if Christian ideals weren’t so prevalent in the media to begin with. As long as CBN, TBN and shows such as “Touched by an Angel” and “It’s a Miracle” (to name a tiny fraction of pro-Christian message sources) remain widely accessible, it seems only fair that we should conversely have access to examples of faith crimes. If you want the media to stay off the backs of devotees, encourage the president to keep his faith-based initiatives to himself. Tell the churches to quit lobbying congress to pass laws that force religious counter beliefs on the unconverted. Help separate (or keep separate) religion from mandated education and law and religion from Emmy and Grammy awards.(“I want to thank God Almighty for glorifying me! Me!, Me!“) Christian propaganda is existent in every media. Why not give equal exposure to information representing the negative effects of Christianity and it’s so called followers? Do we need to agree whose faith is really a valid Christian faith before we can say evil is often a by-product of many of those faiths?
JethricOne, ideas obtain credibility via implementation, and I see no just way to consider a crime without also considering the motivation (the idea) behind the crime, or the criminal who’s motivated by the idea. An Idea expects expression; it craves validation. An untested idea doesn’t usually remain untested for long. Action, no matter how positive or destructive it may end, always begins with an idea. Faith is dependant much the same way. It is meaningless, pointless until someone considers it and puts it to use. If we look at 9/11 and disregard the religious motivation (idea, justification) behind it we are left with something akin to an “act of God” (Yes I see the irony) such as Hurricane Isabel was. All is fair in love and war and collateral damage is something the US justifies for others continuously. Religiously inspired humans fighting a war they consider just were behind this tragedy. Innocent people are fatal victims of religious or moral fervor everyday somewhere in the world, and each event is a newsworthy event. I can’t honestly say that “Christianity is about:- Loving God (#1)- Loving they Neighbor (#2)“ because most examples of Christianity I witness are about judgment, self-promotion, greed, hate, intolerance and so much more that is negative. This is not the non-believer’s fault! If you expect Christians to be exempt as evidence of lunacy, Christians need to present better examples of the faith’s transforming and uplifting powers.
Daryl you said “It just reinforces sectarian notions that all other belief systems are hostile, and by extension so are their believers. Dredging up people who did monstrous things and were Christian / Muslim / Unbelieving Pagans / whatever, and parading them around isn’t going to help anyone get along any better with anyone else.“
If Christianity didn’t have so many sub-faiths and contradictory interpretations, this statement might make more sense. The moment you elevate Christianity from myth to holy missive it becomes a threat to self-determination. Don’t expect anyone to swallow the idea that Christianity isn’t hostile to adverse beliefs. It never has been and perhaps never will be. The Bible is full of stories paraded around about people who did “monstrous” things in defiance of God’s desires and “getting along any better” wasn’t the moral end result of any of the stories. Consider what you offer before you ask others to accept Christianity’s innocence and best intentions.
I really am weary of Christians/ pro-religion types complaining about being picked-on, misrepresented or unfairly spot-lighted. They’ve had their day in the sun, but it’s time for a new day to begin. I say open your minds and consider a greater, more accountable life-view of personally created challenges and rewards. Sooner or later we each have to leave the comfort of fiction and embrace our immutable birthrights.
PS Serai, I thought that was what the Vietnam War was used for: to eradicate rock music playing, free-love loving, long haired hippies by sending them off to murder camps.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

Mild Bill,

I certainly do not ask that stories be buried because they cause me discomfort—in fact, they normally don’t. But as I see yet another story of so-called christians who do wrong in the name of God…I find it distressing when the direction of the stories seem to be in the implicit condemning of the religion, rather than the psychosis of the person.

Every time I hear that “D&D” or “Ozzy” or “God” caused somebody to do something stupid…I can’t help but cringe. We blame valid hobbies, musicians and spiritual beliefs for the people who believe in them.

Now certainly, some reasonable people do annoying things with their religion. As you say, people take the fact that religion provides a strong moral basis, and use this to claim that this puts them on a moral high ground over spiritually blind people like you (:-p)

And I have no problem with low-pressure attempts to help people to find a relationship with God—I even support it. If God is the only path to salvation (or whatever) then it is not just an option, but a Christian obligation to help others find that path.

It’s when that “preferred status” of “saved” is used to justify inflicting emotional or physical pain on others…that’s when I have a serious problem. And when people blame the religion for causing that pain..I have a problem with that, as well.

Most Christians that I have had the pleasure of knowing would agree—be they fundamentalist or fairly liberal—claiming superiority is wrong. Insulting others is wrong. Hurting others is wrong. And those who claim religion justifies any of these things..they are wrong too.

The story you mentioned, about the church or group that killed a kid while attempting to drive out the autism…that is the sort of story that doesn’t bother me for it’s religious content.

Nor do stories about christians who believed that God would save them from [insert disease or condition here] and found out they were wrong.

These stories are about how certain widely held beliefs are wrong, and cause damage. They don’t impune a belief in a savior who came to earth to save us. Rather, they shine light on misguided beliefs and the possible implication of those beliefs.

My problem is with stories that combine themes, in such a way that they imply that the religion itself is supect and concerning—and often implying that actions by a member of a religion is somehow condoned and supported by the religious institution or belief system.

Not because the stories should be hidden, but because they often imply that the religion (or lack thereof) is to blame for the crime.

Hmm I don’t know about anyone else here, but surely a belief system that cultivates the view that it’s followers are saved and or chosen by God and therefore somewhat better than everyone else, and that those who are not followers are condemned and unworthy and at best misguided, might lead some of it’s less discerning adherents to believe that they really were better than the people they were killing and that in fact they were doing God a favour?

Allright perhaps these people were accidents waiting to happen, but it does seem that religion acts as the catalyst in these events far more often than

(music, TV shows, games, God, Satan, Twinkies)

after all I can’t recall instances of whole countries wiping out sections of their population over disagreements on musical taste, but I can certainly find you one or two instances where religion was the motivation. I rest my case…

*Gently nudges things back on topic*
You know the thing I have always found ironic about this pray for salvation *baloney, is this notion that Gods sits there and picks out who dies and who doesn’t in a disaster, like kid with a giant pack of M&M’s who only likes the red ones. (Yes we have M&M’s in the UK now, we used to call them peanut Revels)

When I was one of those religious **whackos or flakes I met a ***dude in the course of my ministry who brought up a good point. He asked me if I thought that God looked after his people when they prayed to him, I replied yes I thought he did, he then said so God would ignore a child who was being molested, and nip on over to help some christian find their car keys instead?

He was responding to an article in one of the magazines I was showing him, where someone was saying how God helps the righteous even in small things if you pray. This made me think seriously about my faith, and taken in context with the scriptures that say God is impartial and we are all precious to him it opened my eyes to how *****bogus these claims are.

*baloney substituted for rubbish in deference to American readers.

**whackos or flakes substituted for nutcases or flippin’ mental types

***dude substituted for bloke or geezer

*****bogus substituted for daft

Footnotes brought to you by Serai’s oh so English sense of humour, no liability for error in transatlantic translation is accepted, statutory rights remain unaffected. =P

Clever of you to change you name to “IB Bill” on certain posts. That way you can lose an argument and still maintain a sense of inviolateness while I’m none the wiser.

Lose an argument?  Brock, dude, no offense, but you bored me off this thread.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you find the best-est sites, Les. Fucking hilarious, and they even include relevant scripture. Talk about apropos, but I felt guilt from laughing so hard.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

There is something inherently unfair about media sources jumping all over those who restrict, hurt, damage and/or kill in the name of their god (or lack thereof.)

I moderately disagree; many of these type stories are not even reported in the mainstream media, at least not at the national level.  Did you see the story a couple of weeks ago about the church that killed an autistic kid while trying to “exorcise” the demon of autism from him?  Was that posted on this site?  I think that’s damn newsworthy!  To think that there are still functioning human beings around that believe demons cause illness is pretty damn newsworthy.

I’ve been told by Christians, more times than I care to mention, that I’m spiritually blind and therefore lack the ability to see “the truth”.  I do not seek them out…they seek me out!!!  I generally point out “little incidents” like slavery in America, which was sanctioned by many religious folks, as proof that they are no more enlightened than me.  I usually just get some condescending reply that doesn’t deal with the issue.  That slavery is wrong appears to be a no-brainer…what’s the reason for having it?  In one word GREED!  Why pay someone when you can have a slave do it?

I am not a religion baiter or hater, but I think that exposing the true nature of all aspects of organized religion is appropriate.  As I’ve said before, I never really had negative feelings about organized religion until I actually started going to church and experiencing what it’s about! 

I sit and listen incredulously as Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff, and Rod Paisley peddle their crap to the gullible in the mainstream religious media.  I don’t hear many religious people chastising them, so I’m glad that there are people out there who report on these “men of God”.  Jethric, you are one of the most level-headed Christians I’ve ever spoken with, but you can’t expect the media to bury these stories just because they cause you discomfort.

Gee, Mild Bill, you take things to the extreme quite a bit don’t you? Don’t worry, I’m aware of what the National Front stands for and realize, in all seriousness, that bigotry knows no borders. France has Le Front National, and it is a growing political party too, unfortunately. I only hope Serai recognizes better the innocent humor intended in my post, than you did.
The “loo” and “biscuit” references were used jokingly to poke fun at your belief that “Serai is from England and our idioms often do not translate to English English. If you prefer, I’ll dumb myself down in the future.“ (Mild Bill quote from “Bush and Rumsfeld both state…“ entry by Les on 9/18)
I think Serai communicates as effectively to Americans as you do, possibly more so at times. Actually, I think you dumb yourself down more often than you think and despite your intent to do otherwise. Take care not to “dumb down” too frequently, as you may stay that way.

Oh, and the remark about being bipolar (chuckle): Bipolar Disorder is not the same as DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) but I understood the intent of your put-down nevertheless. Possibly it confused you that both have “disorder” in their names. Hey, I’ll admit I go both ways, as I figure it increases my chances of getting a date on a Saturday night. If I can’t entice with over-optimism I can usually elicit pity and resignation.

Also, a “-b+t ro -ck+ll” is defined in Dictionary.com as “An individual who…regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the* have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.“
While I plead guilty of attempting to annoy you at times, I think I stay on topic (present post excepted) at least as well as you do, if not more often. The fact that people know so little about my history, race and prior employment should serve as an example. While you may believe that your intellect is enviable, as suggested by your exclamation
“Once a guy asked me, “Do you think you’re cool or something?”. I told him there were a couple of possibilities…either I thought I was cool or I really was cool! He thought that was a cool answer! You can apply that to your opining over my intellectual capacity” (also from “Bush and Rumsfeld both state…“ )
I sometimes think you interrupt a discussion simply to elevate yourself, making you a vanity troll, perhaps.

We all want to come across as cogent. In the end, it all depends on how welcome our opinions are. I have fun calling you out but ultimately hope others derive some measure of worth from our bantering. I have yet to find a site more expansive and relevant than this one.  I filter and express my views through humor, anger, sarcasm, guilt inducement and more. If that makes me appear to be bipolar, so be it. I can assure you that most of my “personalities” only hope to add to the value of discussions here.
     

*Should be “they“ . Even dictionaries can accidentally leave out a letter. I feel better about my mistake in my earlier post and demand you reinstate my “A”

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

I think I have to weigh in with Daryl on this one.

There is something inherently unfair about media sources jumping all over those who restrict,  hurt, damage and/or kill in the name of their god (or lack thereof.) Not because the stories should be hidden, but because they often imply that the religion (or lack thereof) is to blame for the crime.

I stand very firmly stand behind the statement that ideas are not responsible for the people who believe in them.

Christianity is about:
  - Loving God (#1)
  - Loving they Neighbor (#2)

This is straight from the big J himself. And yet when some lunatic prooftexts the more “esoteric” parts of the bible into evidence of their need to be immoral….or better, “God” ‘tells’ somebody that they should perform an immoral act—the press jumps all over their religious beliefs.

Why not report “yet another lunatic with no sense of reality has latched onto such-and-such (music, TV shows, games, God, Satan, Twinkies) as their crutch and the action has resulted in .

Much better, I think, and no implication that the “crutch” in question is actually at fault for the psychotic behavior.

bwhahahahahahaha :D

look yall, you haters succ! y u gonna diss on gay people when you aint even tried to see wut its like to be gay. or mayby you do. y else would all these “non gay” people be checkin out THIS site stead of any other? im a girl and im not gay but i know a few guyz that are so if ur gonna diss on gay peeple, pleeze do it sumwher else. thanx

NF hmm yes what can I say? IQ’s of room temperature, short hair VERY short hair Edward Norton in American History X types actually.

Oh and they call themselves the BNP now, the British National Party and they wear suits and stuff, and people can vote for them too!!!

I want Tom Baker back!!

WOW! That is great news! I LOVED Dr. Who! My favorite was Tom Baker because of his unique eccentricity, but Tim Curry as a baddie, now THAT’S entertainment!

This really saddened me. When I was a kid and realized I would never be an astronaut, I wanted to be a Palmer Girl.

Alan Rickman would rock, but I think he’s probably still way too popular an actor to be affordable. Unless, of course, he wanted to do the role.

Though given his propensity for playing villians he might be better used as a new incarnation of The Master. Could you imagine Alan Rickman doing The Master? Oh yeah! And as a recurring role he wouldn’t be quite so expensive.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Alan Rickman would be great!

HA! Now I’ve got to find a fun place to work… Feds are so dang serious sometimes.

Getting a new pet from the HS is a good deal too. Cheaper to get it fixed and it’s shots.  Not to mention with the cold weather on the way there will be an increase in the number of animals brought in.  Make a friend for life, adopt a cat or dog!

Brock

Actually that name should be modified by dropping all the letters after B and adding ipolar Disorder!  Do the docs in the mental institution you’ve been committed to know you’ve been posting to the internet again?  Maybe they let you do it as part of your therapy; that way all of your numerous personalities can be exercised (or is that exorcised?)

What point are you trying to make about the loo and biscuit stuff?  Is that you or is it personality number 6, Otto, the Swiss ballet dancer?  I applaud you for your observations about GIs drinking and getting into bar fights; I’ve seen those movies too!  Actually I was never in a bar fight, but almost was once.

Dream sequence beginning now…….fade to 1980, a pub in the English Midlands…

I was minding my own business, talking to some student nurses in a public house, when some local gentlemen took exception to it.  We left the pub and took our discussion outside, with some assistance from a bouncer.  After a bit of discussion I realized these gentlemen were from a group called the National Front!  At the end of our summit meeting outside the pub, we agreed to disagree and as I turned, a pint glass went whizzing by my head.  I turned back, voiced my displeasure, and asked the person who threw the glass to step forward so we could resolve our differences.  My offer was declined and as I turned to go, twenty or thirty of the gentlemen started shouting “Sig Heil, Sig Heil!”

I understand that you may have never heard of the National Front, because they have not been featured in any movies (where you apparently get most of your information).  I’ll bet Serai has heard of them…though they may have a different name now.  So much for your “no crackers like in Florida” hypothesis.  Serai, I am relying on you to explain what the National Front is/was because I obviously have some sort of agenda and can’t be trusted to relay unbiased information.

Looking forward to your further insults with great anticipation though you are starting to mutate into a…well take your name and drop the “B” and the “ck” then add a T at the beginning and “double l” at the end!  Hey was that you in The Lord of the Rings???

You’re killing me with this!  

I feel a link-steal about to happen…. *YOINK!*

That’s hysterical! Probably the only thing that’s ever made me wish I didn’t work alone….

Would it count if you pulled it off at the grocery store or something? I gotta get in on this.

Oh I’m sure it will be hacked.

Although I don’t condone copyright infrigement (my livelihood partially depends on it) and I think anyone who truly believes the music should be free is an idiot…the recording industry did this to themselves.

It’s my opinion that if they’d gotten their heads out of their asses years ago and started offering up their collections online and per-track, for a reasonable fee, they could have avoided most of this. But they didn’t want to invest in the infrastructure. And they wanted to continue shoving their current entire-album-with-expensive-packaging format down people’s throats. Even though “people” made it abundantly clear they no longer wanted to be limited to buying their music that way.

There will always be people determined to get something for nothing. But personally, that was never, ever my motivation. I think the attraction was in large part the ease of grabbing any song you want at 1am, as well as the gigantic selection available. If you wanted it, no matter how obscure, I bet it was out there.

I know there’s alot of places to buy one track on the net now (generally under $1), but from what I’ve seen, the collections are still lacking. If the recording industry wants this to end, they need to head on down to their basements and start pulling out everything they’ve ever recorded/sold and get it encoded and available.

Granted, some have made good strides, but maybe the track I’m looking for doesn’t happen to be the latest Britney Spears, y’know?

You obviously haven’t had to face the charge of being immoral because morals only come from god. Les seems to be trying to show that morals and religion aren’t dependent. The level of your piety has nothing to do with your level of morality. Morality is generally society driven, and most choices of right and wrong are determined by what society will allow (or will no longer allow). Just look at what has been considered acceptable behaviour in the U.S. since it’s foundation, and what was once perfectly acceptable, but is now seen as morally reprehensible. Did the essential values allegedly taught in the bible change, of course not. What changed was the societies acceptance of what is right, and what is wrong. Things like slavery, racism, and spousal/child abuse were once acceptable, and could be supported by scripture, so why did things change? It wasn’t the fundementalists sticking to scripture, it was open minded free thinkers that were willing to buck the status quo.

It’ll be hacked.  There’s already software out there that will digitize streaming music, or anything else that is processed by your sound card.  It’ll discourage the casual distributor, which is most people, but it won’t stop people who have an ideological bone to pick with the RIAA.

The papers are filled with news stories like this all the time where someone acting under the belief that God is speaking directly to them goes off and does all manner of horrible things..  ..After all, it’s what the September 11th hijackers used to steel their courage.

Ya, and nut-jobs who aren’t particularly religious get their ideas from TV / video games / squirrels who talk to them.  The kids who shot up Columbine High School certainly weren’t religious, but they “steeled up their nerves” well enough to get the job done.

I get tired of being told by people like David that I am instantly not trust-worthy simply because I lack faith in a higher power

Fair enough, but making essentially the same argument back to him isn’t going to solve anything.  If it’s a fallacy for him to think you’re not trust-worthy because you’re not religious, it’s just as ludicrous to offer up these religious freak-shows in your own defense.

More generally, this country is supposed to be based on the idea of people with very different belief systems “living and letting live”.  When it comes to the Big Questions, let God sort it out, as they say.  Dredging up people who did monstrous things and were Christian / Muslim / Unbelieving Pagans / whatever, and parading them around isn’t going to help anyone get along any better with anyone else.  It just reinforces sectarian notions that all other belief systems are hostile, and by extension so are their believers.

People already are frightened of atheists. We’re supposed to be evil and without morals, remember?

The reason I put up posts such as this is to off-set the common opinion that religious faith is always a good thing. Like anything else, it has its dark side. I get tired of being told by people like David that I am instantly not trust-worthy simply because I lack faith in a higher power when there are believers out there committing acts way more heinous than anything I’ve ever done or would ever do.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

“Yes, I know. And that’s what frightens me.”

Examples can be found in just about all of them of people who convinced themselves what they were doing was condoned by God

Yes, and countless examples can be found of agnostics and atheists doing terrible things without God’s “approval”.  So what?

I agree with most of your entries about the blurring line between Church and State, Les.  I don’t know why you feel compelled to post stuff like this, though.  “Christian is a complete whacko; all Christians now suspect..?“  Please.  I can’t help but call this God-baiting.

This guy blew away a bunch of teenagers in a church because he hates religion.  Should we be frightened of atheists?

Ok Mild Bill, explain how I have a pair of pink and red evening fatigues with an “IB ‘Mild’ Bill” name-tag sewn into the lining, with a highly suspicious stain on the pants. (Early discharge? I’m just asking!)

Serai, you spelt enigma incorrectly. It should have been spelt with an e instead of an i and no g. Beside that, you let Mild Bill off too easily, regardless of the vast cultural and language differences between Great Britain and the US. (This is a bathroom. You know it as a “loo.“ It is where one goes to pee. Please do not relieve yourself in the kitchen sink. This is a cracker, not a biscuit. A “cracker” is also someone who lives in Florida. I don’t think you have anything like a Floridian in your country to campare to.) Mild Bill is an ex-serviceman. Active servicemen drink a lot and like to start bar fights. They’ll tell you anything to have their ways with you. (Always suspect a smiley face god icon attending something they post. It might have been placed there to put you off guard.) They generally seem to know a lot about select issues, such as world conflicts, past and present. They really do however, know a great deal about how to survive in the wilds, (places like Florida or Texas. I don’t think you have any places like Florida or Texas in Great Britain.)
Most importantly, never discuss politics with a serviceman, especially with E-5’s and above. You’ll only end up with a skewed ideology and an unwanted child or two.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

this is to all the people on this site that are out of touch with all the dim wits on this planet. tha gangsta is just a lazy way to say the gangster, which makes so much more sense to write “tha” instead of “the”. it makes rhyming for retards easier.
  Les, this is a great site. It is in my professional(hehehe i think that i am a professional) opinion that you should be a mechanic, doctor or professor. Your train of logic is excellent. Every one that read this site (even tha ventrical gangsta man) knows that he can’t argue. He just got all pissed ‘cause you made him look like and idiot. I’m guessing that his original intent was to make you look like a fool.
  this part goes to the tha gangsta ventricle ball sack licker. do you have any idea what the hell you are talking about?!?!?!? my cat could crap a better arguement that you could ever hope piece together. i took a debate class once. it sucked, probably because i slept through it. one thing i do remember is that you don’t make assumptions and don’t do name calling. i have a family friend named les. he owns a 1969 Dodge Charger R/T and a 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle LS6. those are muscle cars(i wouldn’t expect you to know what those are), three awsome dauters, a hot wife, makes more money that you could ever dream of and he would stomp a mud hole in your ass then walk it dry, you whiny little bitch. look i can use name calling since i don’t have a medal in argueing, dumbass. making fun of somebodys name instead of punching holes in someones arguement is an indication of a feeble mind. feel free to call me a doo doo head after you read this.
  Back to Les and other smart people. the only real problem that i had with your arguement with tha chowdahed was, that you didn’t bring up the biblical fact(not to be confused with scientific fact) all that shit started out in and around the arab nations. which (i think) would make his apperance different than what is accepted, same with mary and “tha apossles”. you can feel free to rip on me, i think it is hilarous. if you see any thing wrong with this, then correct me. IT IS GREAT TO LEARN FROM OTHERS.
  before i forget, this is to tha dumshit. i am an athiest. i stop to help people stuck in snow because my vehicle can pull them out. i stop to help people with broken down cars on the side of the road because i have an A.A.S. in Automotive Servive. I don’t do drugs or have sex. I jump from airplanes(i would strongly reccomend to everybody), break my jeep fourwheeling for fun, hang out with friends, drink beer, work ten+ hours a day and go to school. but because i don’t believe in a god i am going to a place that doesn’t exist. fuck you, you simple minded piece of shit. just wait until YOU get into the real world, you wont care about the same things you so violently defend now. i know a guy that is a bishop in a church and he beats his wife and kids, so is he going to heaven?(that is directed towards tha dinglberi only, no one else)
P.S. Les your site kicks ass. by the way so does your beard. Do you ride a Harley-Davidson? if not you really should.

Sounds like a fine comprimise to me. I never felt like the music should be free, just available in the user’s preferred format (in my case, digital and portable).

But these “secure digital” tracks cannot be played on another computer should they be uploaded to the Net.

Which also sounds fine, but I wonder if it will allow the files to be moved/copied around your LAN or if you’ll have to insert the CD every time?

This part I found interesting,

When put into a Macintosh or Windows PC, the disc installs software to keep the music secure,

Let’s hope they resisted the urge to add spyware to the copy software, somehow I doubt they would pass up a prime chance to. I even found spyware on my blooming mouse driver recently!!!

I was impressed that they felt the comment I made was worth hearing

Les, I’ve been lurking around on your site for about a week now. I found you because I was Googling around for some discussion on the Ten Commandments (I live in AL). One night I actually stayed up until sunrise enthralled in some of the more heated religious debates.

I think every comment you make is worth hearing. I absolutely love your style! I don’t think I’ve read anything I’ve disagreed with yet.

Maybe I’ll jump in the next time a Church/State Separation issue comes up (and don’t you attract some real winners?). Looks like great fun!

Exactly right Val…a blind man can see it.  I’d love to see what the Baptists would do if the Catholics were running the show!  Most Baptists I’ve met don’t believe Catholics are Christians.  And the Pentecostals will go nuts if the Baptists are in charge because the Baptists don’t speak in tongues!  Of course there are the foot-washing Baptists and the snake handlers who don’t much think anyone other than themselves are anointed.  And if the Hari Krishna are running stuff…well I’m sorry, but I’m not cutting my hair like that and those outfits they wear don’t really compliment my figure!

You need to look at Northern Ireland to see what is possible when christians can’t agree.

That’s right…doesn’t River Dance come from there??? AAAHHHHH!

And which version of Christianity even?

There is the rub. They are all in agreement right now with their anti-secular notions, but what happens if they should succeed? That is when the real battle begins. Who’s version of christianity gets to be put forward. We have seen comments at SEB from some christians that other sects aren’t “real” christians, and that is mild compared to things I have heard elsewhere. You need to look at Northern Ireland to see what is possible when christians can’t agree.

Oh my. I just realized that I actually typed the following in my entry above: “I’m constantly amazed at what other sites link back to SEB considering that it’s considered to be a controversial website by a lot of folks.“

Egads does that ever sound bad. I blame it on not enough coffee. Or too much coffee. Or something other than being totally pathetic at sentence structure.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Just wait till I put my SantaLes picture back up for the holidays.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

For me it’s the bearded mug.

And which version of Christianity even?  It is fraught with difficulties at best.

Guys, I think some of you are missing some of the finer points of this tragedy. The children were reprimanded like this for taking cookies and water from the tap. These were adopted children, who only wanted a stable home and sustenance. The children seemed to accept being tied up as a valid response to the wrongness of feeding hunger and thirst. The parents are monsters and should never have been allowed to adopt. Then consider the friend, a mother of nine children who assisted by destroying evidence of the murder of a child.
Religion, as Les pointed out, allows people to justify any number of heinous beliefs and actions and Brendoman, your concern seems to be for defense of the bible, as though defending it and the religion it represents should be our concern as well. Well guess what - even if the bible doesn’t deserve to be blamed for each and every one of the actions of wackos, it and Christianity keep showing up as accomplices to repression, abuse and murder. If it is encouraging anti-social behavior, maybe it’s time to ban it. After all, far less controversial and hate-provoking books have been banned by Christians.
It isn’t funny anymore and never has been. Defend the bible all you want. But consider looking into the death, destruction, hate and intolerance it can be said to have had a direct link to and maybe you’ll kid yourself less and another kid will still be alive.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
Unknown

Isn’t it absolutely interesting how a simple discussion about the number of visible stars can turn into a debate about reality, belief and creation?

I’m pro-celebration at any time.  Just got back from Octoberfest in Munich and all I’ve got to say is “Prost!“  But Harvest is a bit anachronistic in a global economy….