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Guys, guys, guys!  Your idealism is commendable.  I wish for some of the same things you do, but idealism has little practical application in the real world.  Example:

The Constitution is the idealistically driven document that sets forth our philosophy for law in this country.  The law, however, is implemented through the United States Code and other statutes.  It would not be possible to use only the Constitution as the basis for law, because it is too general.  On the other hand, the US Code is absurdly detailed and specific.

As Ken conceded, it would be nearly impossible to define who is rich.  Did having a draft in the past ever stop a President from sending in troops for dubious reasons?  Did it stop McKinley from sending in troops to fight the Spanish, who may or may not have sunk one of our ships, the Maine?  Did it stop LBJ from fabricating the Gulf of Tonkin incident?  Though the captain of the intelligence gathering ship, the Maddox, claims he was not attacked by North Vietnamese forces, LBJ insisted that he was attacked.  That was the start of that little excursion in Vietnam.  Now LBJ only had daughters from what I remember, so should we only allow Presidents, Congressmen, etc., to serve who have sons who could be drafted? 

In the post-conscription era, Regan sent Marines to Lebanon, where several hundred were slaughtered by a suicide bomber, and then simply withdrew them.  George HW Bush was criticized for not sending troops to Somalia…he was called a racist.  Clinton on the other hand being “progressive”, sent in Army units with little chance of success militarily, because there were no clearly defined objectives.  They also lacked a key ingredient in the success of most of our military operations, airpower!  I know a couple of Rangers and they tell me the movie Blackhawk Down was exceptionally accurate. 

And speaking of Rangers, one little thing Mr. Rangel and his ilk don’t tell you is the vast majority of US Special Forces, besides being volunteers, are also mostly CAUCASION.  In this world of considerable unfairness and injustice, what could be fairer than volunteer military service?

This is 2003, not 1963.  Even if you’re poor, you can go to college or technical school FOR NO TUITION FOR YOUR FIRST TWO YEARS, courtesy of the US government.  Especially if you’re poor, you can get loans and grants for college or technical training.  That’s besides programs offered by the states, colleges, and private institutions.  Bill Gates’ foundation alone gives away tens of millions a year to disadvantaged young people.  I never really thought of the military as a welfare program for the poor, but I guess in some people’s minds it is.  To state that you joined the military because you are poor and have no options seems to be a flawed argument.

Oh, and putting war up to a vote would be “BIG D” Democracy, which this country is not!

Hey, I’m glad you guys support Rangel...when I get my share of those slavery reparations, I’ll be laughing all the way to the bank

Actually you should know that speed limit on a given stretch of road even if unposted, at least that is what they told me in driver’s ed. If memory serves it is 25 in residential neighborhoods...actually screw my memory (I can’t rely on it to save my life anyhow) the following link will give you the Michigan State limits (your state may differ).

Anyhow I know this isn’t about speed limits but is about the definition of “rich”.

Dictionary.com defines Rich as (among other things):

Possessing great material wealth: “Now that he was rich he was not thought ignorant any more, but simply eccentric” (Mavis Gallant).

I guess then the question is what level of great material wealth constitutes being rich. No one person can make that call but as a society we come together to make laws based on consensus and as a society we also make a determination of rich based on what the average income is. I know for a fact that Bill Gates in most people’s estimation is rich, so rich that most of us cannot even conceive what it must be like to have that much money...and we never will. But now just for shits and giggles let’s look at some numbers and try to figure out in a country as wealthy as ours why it is that we have anyone who could be considered poor.

In the second quarter of 2003 the GDP in billions of chained 1996 dollars (which I chose because it is the lower of the two numbers I could have picked, not because I have a clue what chained 1996 dollars are)was 9,608.1. That means $9,608,000,000,000 plus or minus was made in three months in the United States. The Population clock at the U.S. Census Bureau has the U.S. Population at 291,675,669 (at least when I checked it). Now with absolutely none of that money going back into materials, utilities, etc. that would be $32,940.70 per person (even infants just born) over the course of three months so that would be, what? $131,762.79 per person each year before taxes. Now we know that industry would grind to a halt if no money was re-invested so let’s say everyone could live quite comfortably on $50,000.00 per person per year and the rest gets re-invested. Hell we could even afford to have free health care and education through college with that kind of cash, but we would rather let people die in the streets each winter rather than consider something that smacks of socialism. Better dead than red I suppose, I guess I should remember to ask the next homeless man, woman, or child I see on these gold paved American streets of ours.

Everyone likes to say that America is the greatest country in the world but in relation to what? All of your other choices? Okay, I will agree with that, but it can be greater still if it could just stop being so goddamn greedy.

Do I have a problem with the rich? Every person is unique and I could only make that call on a case by case basis but as a group their concentration of wealth is an obscenity.

When I said “draft the rich” I was being a little facetious, and was not intending to be taken literally.  I agree with Mild Bill that there is no fair way to make such a distinction in implementing a selective service system.  However, a general draft does bring the issue home to roost more so than does an essentially mercenary volunteer armed forces. 

From a democratic perspective (please note the small “d"), we in this country are all equally responsible for our actions as a state.  Even though I have two soon-to-be eligible children, I would favor a general draft.  I feel that a draft forces citizens to actively take a position on what our government is up to one way or another:  either you suit up and serve, or ante-up with decisive refusal on moral/common-sense grounds, facing and fighting whatever legal repercussions ensue. These are both honorable options available to any free individual.

There should be no wealth/class-based deferrals (student, professional,...).  The blatancy with which these loopholes were exercised were one of the main reasons for the “liberal” objections to the Vietnam-era draft to which Bill referred.  The poor and lower middle class were tired of watching G.W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Tom Delay, John Ashcroft, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Trent Lott, Antonin Scalia, Bill Bennett, Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, Ken Starr, and others easily dance out of a war that they and their families ostensibly supported.

Of course, with the growing rift between rich and poor in this country, as clearly outlined by Eric, the odds would still be in favor of the wealthy for having their children escape danger.  Perhaps a war service-by-referendum would be most equitable - put military action up for direct vote, with “yes"s going straight to the front

You double-dipped, posted twice before I could reply...I think that is a SEB faux pas old chap, an unforgivable breech of etiquette

I was in the Air Force, as I stated earlier, for over 20 years.  I don’t believe I ever said “everyone” went in to the military for the same reason.  I went in because I was bored at home and wanted to see the world.  I’ve heard of people going in because they were patriotic (all that flag waving horseshit), but that wasn’t my reason.  I do not know how you inferred that I meant all people go in for the same reason! I’m quite sure there are unscrupulous recruiters (like in the movie Private Benjamin) who don’t tell recruits the whole truth when they enlist.  This was not my experience; my recruiter told me everything (good and bad).

Dictionary.com defines volunteer thusly:

To perform or offer to perform a service of one’s own free will.

A person who renders aid, performs a service, or assumes an obligation voluntarily.

I’ll have to give these volunteers, who joined for various reasons, credit for having brains enough to figure out that the military’s job is to kill people and break stuff.  If you joined without that knowledge, that is unfortunate.  As with any job, your boss offers you compensation and you provide a service in return.  I can’t think of any job where you tell the boss what you will or will not do.  It’s also unfortunate that you had to join the military because you had no options, but by the definitions above, you volunteered. 

I’ve served with the son of a 4-star general, Gen Horner, air commander during the first Gulf War.  I also served with a lieutenant who had a doctorate in Chemistry, 28 years old!  I’ve met guys who had extremely wealthy parents or spouses.  One guy that worked for me (an E-4) was married to a dentist and he once went to Kenya on safari for a month!  I’ve served with city boys, surfers, farmers, you name it.  Their reasons for joining were as varied as they themselves were.

I asked how you define “rich” and was lambasted for it, but you still didn’t define it…I should just know what rich is?!  I should just know what the speed limit is on a certain stretch of road?  I should just know how much my fair shares of taxes are?  Negative!  If you move from the conceptual or philosophical realm to implementing something, don’t you agree there must be some standard definition?  That’s all I meant…who the hell is going to decide who is rich?

When did I say the game isn’t rigged?  I happen to be a Black American, so you have very, very little to tell me about inequality.  I guess I could just be hostile and justify any deviant behavior that fits my purpose.  I could just rationalize shit away, like so many people do.  “Yeah, I robbed that guy because he’s white and he has it better than me”.  There are a whole lot of those types out there, some related to me!  For me to envy those who I perceive have more than me, is a waste of time.  Arguably you yourself are better off than many, because you can afford a computer and an Internet connection.  For some people I know, that is as much of a luxury as me driving a Mercedes coupe!

Did I read you wrong or did you imply that “my precious money and status was safe?” OK, I’m done laughing about that!  Where in the hell did you get that idea?  It’s unfortunate that you misunderstood where I was coming from.  I lived outside of this country for over 13 years and had extended stays in over a dozen countries.  If you want to see “screwed up”, move to another country and compare.  I sure as hell did, which is why I’ll never live anywhere else…as screwed up as this place is.

I guess what I really mean to say is, what some people call “screwed up”, I call normal!

here, here pgs. Terrorism’s main goal is to instill terror. To make you change your life because you are afraid of what terrorists might do. If we lose any amount of freedom because we are afraid, we’ve lost the war on terrorism. They’ve won.

I’d fly home on a commercial airliner TODAY from Afganistan, with only the most meanial of security. I am NOT afraid.

Ken, I wrote it, wanting to poke fun at Bush’s desperate attempt to get the greater GOP behind him on a single issue. I thought of having even one-year-olds ask relevant questions but realized even Bush wouldn’t bother to indoctrinate someone that young. Is it on a web-site? Yeah, this one. Heh heh.

My first thought when I heard him say “I am mindful that we are all sinners” was that he’s right about himself at least. It angered me and I expected the remark to turn around and bite him on the evening news. What was I thinking? The optimist in me expects that it yet will, eventually. After all, christians love to call out others’ sins but hate to be accused of sinning themselves. 

 Signature 

“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

Oh, and if you are going to attempt to cleverly belittle me by referring to me as Al Sharpton, Charlie Rangle, Karen Silkwood, or who ever else might make you feel superior go for the gold and really knock my socks off. I can’t wait.

You presume that every “volunteer” had a wealth of other options Mild Bill, did you ever stop to consider that they maybe DON’T want to be there but their other options are even more unpalatable? Ever stop to think that maybe they are just gambling that the current commander and chief won’t ship their sorry asses over seas to die in some god forsaken shit hole to protect the interests of his campaign contributors? Do you really think that I went into the military because I had a swell of patriotism that could only be quenched by fighting for the glory of my country? Fuck that noise! I had a dead end job with no health coverage and was sick of eating ramen noodles every other night supplemented with daily vitamins to stave off scurvy or rickets or whatever the hell else you get with vitamin deficiencies.

Maybe the draft isn’t the best idea but letting the rich parcel out the country like it is their own private fiefdom is suicidally insane. let their kids die to protect our oil, let their kids die to increase our global influence, let their kids die in the name of patriotism because they sure as hell get more than their fair share of the spoils. Who are the rich? That’s just pathetic. Do you need to have someone run a study to tell you if you are wet when it is raining? Are you moist, damp, or perhaps there is a degree of wet that is still dry? When 5% of the population owns 95% of the wealth that is fucking rich!

You want to keep the status quo? Fine. All that shows me is that you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Don’t worry, your precious money and status is safe, didn’t mean to scare you with any socialist rambling about inequity, put down the guns because the huns aren’t camped out on your lawn. But don’t sit there and tell me that the game isn’t rigged and that everyone has the same chances as everyone else in this country because it is a lie. And I am sick and tired of hearing it.

And if it is simply a matter of procreation who needs marriage at all? Just about any girl of 13 can manage that astoundingly common ‘miraculous’ feat and a lot of them do. It is just one more form of control, a carrot/stick scenario punishing the outsiders and rewarding the good little followers of convention. Yay government....our eternal parental control.

Yep, good old Charlie Rangel is the man…draft the rich!!!  In case you guys didn’t notice, everyone currently in the military is a volunteer.  Let me see, who would I want next to me in combat, someone who volunteered to be there or someone forced to be there?  Why do we have such a capable military…could it be that people who volunteer are more motivated to serve?

I absolutely agree…start drafting the rich and there will be no more war, whatever your definition of “rich” is.  You will of course have to start up a cabinet-level Department of Defining Who the Rich Guys Are.  The secretary of this crucial department would of course be augmented by the Under Secretary of Puttin’ It To Rich Dudes and the Deputy Secretary of Maligning Rich Dudes.  This program will make poor guys feel better because though they are poor, at least they can avoid the draft.

There may be serious degradation in military readiness, because rich, poor, or in the middle, the all-volunteer force has proven to be much more effective than the conscripted force.  But military readiness is just a peripheral issue as long as we are puttin’ it to them rich guys!  I just want a guy next to me that I can depend on…I don’t believe I’ll be asking for his investment portfolio.

It’s interesting how when Republicans send people to war, it’s only to enrich their own personal wealth, but when Democrats do it, it’s for some righteous cause.  I must say I don’t understand the current bunch of far-left Democrats and their “enlightened and progressive” approach to solving our nation’s problems.  I thought going back to a system that once existed (conscription) was by definition “regressive” not progressive.  I guess I’d better read Webster’s again.

I think we should extend this “clearly well thought out program” to our local and state police agencies.  The more rich guys who are cops, means less crime…right?  Much better to play the envy game than to deal with the real issues.  Charlie’s argument would have made sense 30 years ago, when there was a draft and there was bias towards the poor in that system.  Today, it just sounds ludicrous.

True, on the surface it would not seem to be a bad idea to teach creation theory side by side with evolution but it is just one more thinly veiled attempt to get religion, christian religion, into the schools. Will we also be forced to teach creation theories from other religions? How about theories that we came from the stars or were planted here by beings from other planets? Why not, I mean if we are going to turn science into a great muddied mass of ‘what ifs’ then ALL theories should be taught. Isn’t it bigoted of us not to consider the Raelian point of view, the Hindu, the Scientologist? Why teach anything at all, maybe the “truth” will come to the students in visions or dreams.

I never thought I would live long enough to see a movement to DECREASE the quality of education in our schools. Maybe instead of teaching math we can teach guesstimation.

One more thing…

I keep hearing opponents of gay marriage stating emphatically that it was God’s intent that marriage was to reflect procreation between men and women.  Does this mean that people who can be demonstrated to be sterile should not be allowed to marry?

Fair enough.

I’ve read the Bible front to back over 4 times now. I was a Christian prior to doing that and now I’m an Atheist. Does this mean I got the message?

I agree with you about ignorant people debating things they know nothing about. Just look at some of the comments I’ve gotten from people on Evolution, Cosmology and other theories that it’s clear they know little to nothing about.

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Gods dont kill people. People with Gods kill people. - David Viaene

I never argue about the existence of God. If you’ve read the Bible you have been sent the message.  It’s an individual choice to respond to that message.  If the person has not read the message then he has nothing to debate. As we know, ignorant people debate things they know nothing of all the time.  It’s the American way.

Brock,

Is that for real, or did you write it yourself as a feasibility exercise?  If real, I’ve gotta get it! Is it on a web-site?

After Bush’s “I am mindful that we are all sinners” intro the gay marriage topic at his (cough)press conference I expected intense media outrage (I never learn, do I?). Sinners? Is this a viable concept for governance in the 21st century?!?  What’s next..Scapulamancy?  (Oh yeah, Poindexter’s “Terrorism Futures Market” was a close form of divination - relying on the Omnipotent Market instead of animistic spirits).

I’ve known a number of homosexual couples who have been together for 20 -30 years, who are dignified model citizens, and who conscientiously involve themselves in the community.  But our leaders call them sinners who don’t deserve the rights accorded to any Las Vegas one-night stand.

My wife, an ICU RN, has frequently dealt with situations in which one member of a gay or lesbian couple is dying, but the couple has never gotten around to legally establishing power of attorney.  Generally, there is some antagonistic member of the dying partner’s family whose zealous objections to the lifestyle override everyone else’s grief, and the bereaved partner is cut out of any contact or decision-making.

So much for family values.

Eric
You said;
“please do not fear books and knowledge”.
I don’t fear books or knowledge, and I don’t have a problem with there being 70 sextillion stars out there. What I do have problem with is that evolution says I came from ‘nothing’ that exploded, then some soup stuff bubbled around and then yippee, here we are today. It’s saying I’m just a chemical in one big process. Is that what I’m worth? I’d rather believe I was created on purpose to actually have some meaning in life.

OK, let’s get one thing straight right away: Evolution says NOTHING ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE. OK?!? That’s COSMOLOGY. Evolution as a theory is only concerned with biological processes and that’s it. It doesn’t say ANYTHING pro or con about whether or not there was a Big Bang or what existed prior to the Big Bang or how the stars came to be or how the planet formed or ANYTHING that isn’t a BIOLOGICAL PROCESS.

Do you GET IT now? Have I USED ENOUGH CAPS to get this EXCEEDINGLY SIMPLE CONCEPT through to you people yet??

Yes, all life is just one big chemical process. So what of it? Why do you think that your life is without purpose unless some magical old guy created you? For that matter, what POSSIBLE purpose could you hold for an entity with the power to do WHATEVER THE FUCK IT WANTS?!?! If God can do ANYTHING then why the hell does he need you?!? To tell him how stupendously-amazingly-awesome he is? If that’s your only purpose in life then I’d say that’s not a whole lot better than having no purpose at all.

Les
You said;
“...emphasize how stunning you find the concept of random chance as an explanation for anything ever happening anywhere in the entire universe.”
You’re saying the earth came by random chance. I’m saying it has purpose and meaning.

Fine. Please enlighten me as to what that purpose and meaning is. I’m listening.

If you want to get into chance, fine. Look at Dolly the cloned sheep. Top scientists gathered together and did everything right to make a perfect clone, yet she still had so many faults. So when scientists TRIED to make something perfect, it doesn’t work, then random chance creates a perfect universe with full functioning and complex human beings. ‘Random chance’ didn’t try to make a perfect universe, yet it randomly happened?

Scientists didn’t try to make a “perfect” anything with Dolly. They just wanted to see if they could clone a complex animal. They also didn’t do everything right and they’ve said as much themselves. As for ‘random chance creates a perfect universe’ let’s again point out that you are attributing anthropomorphic qualities to the idea of “random chance”, which is just stupid. “Random Chance” doesn’t try to create anything. And who said the Universe is perfect?

Mate, look around can’t you see design?

No, Mate, I can’t. If this is the best your supposedly “perfect” God can do then he’s pretty pathetic if you ask me. I can think of all manner of things I would’ve done differently that would have made for a much better reality and I’m not even close to being a ‘perfect’ being.

So Sheriff,
I believe;
In the beginning God,
and you believe
In the beginning Dirt.
I say no more.

Man, you just can’t get away from trying to force your limited concepts onto other people. Sheriff Jay didn’t say anything about believing he evolved from dirt.

 Signature 

Gods dont kill people. People with Gods kill people. - David Viaene

Yes it is. If I had fewer scruples I’d cash in on it. Damn my morality.

 Signature 

Gods dont kill people. People with Gods kill people. - David Viaene

Hmm ... #27 there is kinda compelling, I must say ...

They’re talking about this in my staet as well.  As a teacher, I am naturally concerned.  The best way to deal with this in the classroom would be to present both perspectives simultaneously, and make it a major term project to have the kids critique and compare each side-by-side.  In other words, don’t “teach”, but rather have them explore and critically evaluate the issues (as un-American as this may be).  Creationism will lose hands down (in your classroom, anyway).

The problem is that there are all too many educators out there all too willing to preach dogma as opposed to promoting critical thought, since they themselves are afraid of it.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15445”>

Mild Bill,

Are you guilty? I don’t know, Bill: In pursuit of the luxuries and riches you describe did you tweek crucial security information, enabling you to send somebody’s kid off to die on false pretenses?  If so, then YES! Please report to the Hague immediately!

But from what you have mentioned regarding a major portion of your adult history (i.e. military service) it is clear that you are in no way connected to this administration.  Therefore, any professional affiliations you might have had are unlikely to directly influence the ongoing formation of our national policy.

As for this administration - they have recieved the benefit of the doubt and they have failed!  People in America just have to start giving a shit.

If you a truly interested, check these stories out: 

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15445
http://www.thedailyenron.com/documents/20020730085550-68379.asphttp://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14221

So Sheriff,
I believe;
In the beginning God,
and you believe
In the beginning Dirt.
I say no more.

Dang.  I think it will conflict with my ceiling fan.

Britney would merely be a slut in short shorts.
There’s only one person in my mind that can play Daisy Duke and that’s Ms Bach in the original role.

Don’t you think dirt is a step down from monkey?

Eric
You said;
“please do not fear books and knowledge”.
I don’t fear books or knowledge, and I don’t have a problem with there being 70 sextillion stars out there. What I do have problem with is that evolution says I came from ‘nothing’ that exploded, then some soup stuff bubbled around and then yippee, here we are today. It’s saying I’m just a chemical in one big process.
Is that what I’m worth? I’d rather believe I was created on purpose to actually have some meaning in life.
Les
You said;
“...emphasize how stunning you find the concept of random chance as an explanation for anything ever happening anywhere in the entire universe.”
You’re saying the earth came by random chance. I’m saying it has purpose and meaning.
If you want to get into chance, fine. Look at Dolly the cloned sheep. Top scientists gathered together and did everything right to make a perfect clone, yet she still had so many faults. So when scientists TRIED to make something perfect, it doesn’t work, then random chance creates a perfect universe with full functioning and complex human beings. ‘Random chance’ didn’t try to make a perfect universe, yet it randomly happened?
Mate, look around can’t you see design?

I think it is wrong to sue the people who are interested in the record compaines music. They should come up with a better way of controlling filesharing!

I think anything Bush or Clinton did pales to the offense you made…that of double dipping!  It is an abomination in the eyes stupidevilbastard.com to double dip!  Though stupidevilbastard.com has never told me directly, I received “spiritual discernment” on this issue, so I know it’s true.  Even if Les himself denies the fact that double dipping is a SEB sin, I will not believe him and assume he has been taken over by dark forces.

I do not believe Clinton did a “Wag the Dog” in Iraq and Yugoslavia, I merely stated that IF he did, it would have been a pretty immoral thing to do.  I’ll also give him the benefit of the doubt on the attack against the aspirin factory in Sudan.

You obviously do not like Bush and that is understandable; I also don’t care for many of the things he and his administration do.  I will, however, give him the same benefit of the doubt that I gave Clinton.  It is entirely possible that he made those “Chicken Hawk” statements as part of a psychological warfare strategy, sanctioned by the military.  If he did not, then he is quite worthy of criticism.  The military used psywar tactics during the combat phase of the Iraq operation.  Our guys went around with loud speakers shaming the Iraqi fighters by calling them women!  I guess it got them so pissed off that they tried all those mindless suicide attacks. 

As to the charges about the “sweetheart deals” with defense contractors and administration officials, you know more than I do.  IF it is so, then yes it is quite immoral.  I don’t know where you get your information, so I wouldn’t know where to begin trying to explain it.  I’ll tell you honestly that you may be allowing your dislike for Bush to skew your thinking about his motives for action.

Is there no “plausible deniability” for Bush or is that only for Clinton?  Are there memos and witnesses that could display Bush’s “nefarious” links to defense contractors?  I have mutual funds that I’m sure have defense contractors’ stocks in their portfolios, so perhaps I am part of the conspiracy?  I use to work with people from the “Big Two” Lockheed and Boeing, so perhaps I am the criminal mastermind behind this war…I’m trying to get my mutual funds to appreciate so I can get a ‘vette, a wad of dollar bills for the girls at Cheetahs, and a stay at Caesars Palace for a week.  Muhahahahaha!

President Bush, in a recent question and answer session at the Allentown, Pa. Yankee Doodle Day Care Center fielded questions from way in the future voters. The subject most, not surprisingly, had on their minds was gay marriage.

One purple-headed youth wondered why gays would want to marry anyway, adding that “That is so gay, dude.”

The often confused, but determined to not show it, leader of the greatest nation on earth appeared to ponder this question carefully before responding; his deep consideration made apparent by a furrowed forehead, a prolonged stare and a quick dismissive huff of a laugh.

“I don’t really know the answer to that one. If you had asked me that a couple of months ago I would have said I don’t know the answer to that but that we are confident the Supreme Court will rule responsibly on the Texas sodomy case. Marriage is a fabulous promise a man and a woman make to each other. Your daddy gets down on one knee and invites your mommy to share his life. It’s just so special and so, well, fabulous and it is the beginning of a special phase of his life that he will never equal with any other fabulous thing he does. Having said that, it seems sinful somehow for anyone to want to cheapen this nuclear [pronounced awkwardly] union by frivolously trying to mimic the fabulousness of it.”

The next question from a little red faced four-year-old girl seemed to anger and frustrate the president momentarily.

“My daddy and my daddy want to move to Canada so they can get married. Why can’t they stay here and marry instead?“

“Well, because we don’t do silly stuff like that in this country, honey. Let me ask you; do you read your bible? Because if you did, you would see it doesn’t teach us that homosexuals [pronounced awkwardly] are fabulous. In fact it calls them sinners and while I recognize that we are all sinners, homosexuals [pronounced even more awkwardly] are actual sinners. The bible teaches us to love everybody but it’s kind of difficult to love… er, gays, don’t you think?
“Uh, not really.”
“Sure it is. Trust me, you’ll come to recognize your daddies as perverts soon enough. Have you ever seen two men have sex? I can tell you it is a sickening sight; not fabulous at all.”
“Johnny, Mike and then Susie and then I really have to go run the country.”
Johnny: “Are any of your relatives gay Mr. President?”
“Johnny” with a withering stare “let me answer that by saying ‘what? What?’ Can we have only serious questions here please?”
At the end of the Q and A the president smiled insincerely and upon departing, instructed the children to vote republican as soon as they were old enough.

 Signature 

“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

How do you find these sites? So silly it’s almost like real life. Go ahead Les, keep me amused. I dare ya!

 Signature 

“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

Pissing off customers and everyone in the court system. Way to go.

just beat that bastard out of usa and throw him and his family members in the hands of killers

Les, check out my friend Mike’s posts about this same subject at http://www.insignifica.org

WHAT A GREAT PRODUCT!

I must buy it as soon as I wake up and watch the sun rise over the Pacific Ocean here in LA.

I was just taking a poll.  We truly have NO idea if having killed them will extend or shorten hostilities over there.  I certainly don’t claim to know.  It *could* turn them into marters...mayoters...dang...what you said
OR it could dishearten the enemy.  We really won’t know until the whole thing is over.  I can’t find the source, but I know I read where they had interviewed someone from the area, and he said he was disappointed they had killed them.  He felt they should have been tortured to a long, slow death, and had wanted a crack at them himself.  There IS great hatred for them, but as I showed before, there was also mourning for their deaths.

Without playing the religion/morality card, the ban can’t be justified.
When my now ex-wife and I got married we had a civil ceremony performed by a judge.
The judge gave us copies of ceremonies he performed and allowed us to “cut and paste”.
We had zero references to god or religion.
Unlike some ceremonies I’ve heard about that wanted it the same way, our judge was cool and “stuck to the script”.
I know several gay couples that have been together longer than most of my straight friends.

Scott S, I greatly admire your faith.
Would you repeat the exact same words and without hesitation if I were to tell you that I am muslim.
I wouldn’t be an ATHEIST then. I would be a believer just like you ....no more no less.

If I understand correctly you are talking about the spiritual dimension in our lives.
Like I said earlier, other religious groups claim the same thing as you and they don’t seem to include you in their deal.
Believing to improve your quality of life I can understand but be careful not to fall into blind faith.
You could be the one getting a reality shock.

I am a little more interested in the details surrounding the debate of evolution vs creation.

let’s stay there.....or not...you decide.

Pascles Wagner? What does my Podiatrist have to do with any of this? :o

I keep praying someone will show up to “protect us” from the Republicans:-)

 Signature 

Freedom is not worth having;
if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.
- Ghandi

oh one other thing, you may ask yourself “well how do i know what he is saying is true”

well i say:
THeres no way for you to know what im saying is true unless you know what the truth is, AND there is no way for you to know what the truth is unless there is a truth that you can know.

NOw digest that for awile ill explain it if you want

(Hrm.  One too many “as well"s there, huh?)

Check this topic as well.  I’d love to hear your ideas on it, as well.

well Les As far as fear of goin go hell goes, thats not why im a Christian. Its part of it but a small part. There is one diffrence between what you said and what i said. THe aliens would distroy your body, But God will not only distroy your body but cast your soul into hell..for eternity. That is ofcourse if you dont have Jesus as your savior.

The bible says in Luke 12:4-5 “I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.  But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!”

Yes it is free will to accept him Jay, and if you choose not to, its your choice, and we cant be content to leave it at that. mark 16:15 says go into all the world and preach the gosple.
and serge, if you want to beleive hell is made up be my guest, but man are you in for a shock. Lots of religiouse people dont talk about Hell for a few reasons 1) If theres no hell then no one will go there, so i dont have to go wittness to others-lazyness 2) they dont want the possiblility that they may go there themselves.
THeres alot of people running around claiming to be Christians, but there not. so they eliminate hell to cover there bases.

Be sure about things like hell before you say its made up. Because you could be wrong. and so what if it was pascles wagner, its a ligit thing to think about.

Mild Bill,

I hope you don’t mind, but I’m double-dipping.  The reason is that I realize that I failed to directly respond to your question regarding “wagging the dog”. 

No, wagging the dog is not a moral or acceptiable activity - my dog Carl fucking HATES it!  However, it is an extremely difficult charge to prove.  A president has multiple problems facing him at any time, and must develop appropriate responses that sometimes appear to be in conflict.  But where, in any scenario, is the paper trail linking any president’s particular action to a particular desire to get the press off his back?  If you find a memo, or even a credible witness who can lay out these conections, then sure.  Otherwise, its an easy charge to make, but a bitch to support.  Its an opinion - possibly right on the mark in Clinton’s and others’ cases, but there are just far too many extenuating circumstances and “plausible deniabilities” for this to become a serious issue without more data.

Now when you have a dad, an VP, and key members of your cabinet financially linked to private contractors who are given sweetheart deals on the war that will never end - and strong evidence that outright lies were extended by these people to justify that war - well then you have a case.

Laugh! Classic.

Oh goodie! You have ocean front property for sale somewhere in the midwest?! Can I make the first bid on the sale?

Once again, I excuse nothing illegal that Clinton did, and - due to his character - give reasonable consideraton to any unproven allegations.  However, Clinton is not in office.  He used our military in questionable ways on occasion, but he never started a war that - by his own admission - will not end in our lifetime!  The reason I got irrate in my last message was my impression that you have been justifying current misbehavior by Bush et.al. by saying “but look what Clinton did.” There is no comparison in scale and scope in the malfeasance of these two administrations (the current one being worse, in case you’re wondering).

well id read it but it wont load

Ah, the vast right wing conspiracy.  I can’t reasonably say that you’re wrong on any of your points, though it appears you are quite passionate.  As far as “getting over’ Clinton, I have no idea where you are coming from.  In my previous posts, I pointed out some of Clinton’s questionable conduct, like launching unwarranted attacks against countries to divert attention from his personal problems.  You never responded to those statements, so I guess it’s OK to blow people away to hide your crimes, but not OK, as you say, to do it to line your pockets.

Neither Clinton nor Bush pays my bills, so I can look at them objectively.  You have absolutely no doubt that Clinton did not take immoral actions to divert attention from his legal problems because no one “caught” him at it.  You are positive that Bush has lined his pockets with the blood of our troops, though he passes the “Clinton Test’ that no one has “caught” him at it.

My first involvement in this conversation was after I read about how “Clinton’s little slip-ups do not compare to Bush sending American service people to their deaths for profit”.  Had I not read that statement, I probably would not have entered into this discussion.  So tell me, is “Wag the Dog” a justifiable and moral strategy to use???  I have not yet heard a response to that question…still waiting…

It just amazes me how weak and pathetic their arguement against gay marriages are.
Sounds like some states will allow it soon
like New Jersey, then let the fireworks fly.

Between Bush and the Pope, you’d think we were living about 4-500 years ago.

It’s surreal.