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But, on topic, I experienced this many times with some Mormon acquaintances.  Any challenge to their wingnut beliefs and the buck was immediately passed to the “proper, higher authorities”.

I’m not asking why they believe.  I’m asking-discussing-debating why YOU believe.

Oh, I wish I could remember the comedian’s name.  His standup routine includes a slam at Jehovah’s Witnesses and other religious doorbell ringers.  Some funny moves and comments about how to get them off his doorstep.

Then he segues into a memory of his “old school” Italian neighbourhood where one of the local “businessmen” became a convert.  Not so easy to shoo-dismiss off his doorstep.  He conjured a hilarious picture of a mafiaso with his side men standing on the step.

“Has you hoid da woid of God today?  I tink I should have a talk with youse.“

It’s exactly like a protection racket.  They threaten you, create an imaginary source for the threat and tell you if you don’t do what they say, you will be hurt by this threat.  If it were anything but a religion, it would be a scam and they could be prosecuted for fraud.  Since it’s the Catholic church, what they say is not only more credible, but protected by law.

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“Grab a cat by the tail and you will learn things you can’t learn any other way.“
  - Mark Twain

Talk about a protection racket!

*expensive suit, guy with raspy voice and no neck*

“Say, that’s a nice soul you got there.  Be a shame if something were to… happen to it…“

What really pisses me off about the Xtians is this:

First, they tell you that you were born in sin and are a sinner.

Second, they tell you that THEIR way is the only way out.

Talk about a protection racket!

SG

I don’t see the need for you to debate the theologians at all.

Burden of proof and all that.

The Catholic Church discredits itself quite nicely even without the help of debates, not that the True Believers™ in that company would see it that way…

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

I don’t see the need for you to debate the theologians at all. It’s not an issue of you having to promote your beliefs to them in the first place. There’s no point to it, and frankly, it’s an unwinnable argument from either side. Both parties will walk away remaining unconvinced of the other side’s views. You have no need to defend your personal beliefs to every monk and philosopher who comes along to call you on it. Let them tilt at windmills.

BTW, the guy’s first sentence implying a nexus between “an end higher than survival” and “politics, holidays and marriage” was silly. One can engage in all three of the latter in a perfectly secular environment - they do not necessarily point to a higher being, unless of course you make it so. Thus, a circular argument. Politics, holidays and marriage are all things that can be viewed from a strictly humanistic viewpoint. I can easily make the argument that I can view Christmas as nothing more than a secular occasion for me to bond with family every Dec. 25. Yet I do not question why my religious family members view it differently. Thus, the real nexus is the personal choice to believe in what you believe.

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“How did the nation that once repudiated aristocracy and celebrated meritocracy become a place where financial gains were privatized while financial losses were socialized?“ —Despair, Inc.

If you were truly an atheist, wouldn’t you also not concern yourself with politics, holidays, marriage, etc..?  All of these things imply that there is an end to human life higher than survival.  Wouldn’t you simply ignore these things as products of religion and susperstition?

I hope he’s not going to use that question as an example of how much better Catholics are at debating Atheists.  If that’s all they got, I’ll debate him anytime.  Politics is a product of religion and superstition?  Maybe the way it’s done in congress…..

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“Grab a cat by the tail and you will learn things you can’t learn any other way.“
  - Mark Twain

Yeah, Bush tried handing out money before.  He tried $300 to everyone (except some of the really low income earners who got a lot less for some strange reason)  Then later, he tried $600 to everyone.  I gotta tell you, the $600 was almost worth the effort, but it wasn’t really enough to do anything beyond help pay for things.  $2500 now.. that’s getting better.  That’s a cheap car, a month or two on the mortgage, or a big chunk out of a credit card balance.  It’s not a lot, but it is useful and I could probably make a case for that being a more effective “stimulus package” than giving money to companies too stupid to survive on their own.

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“Grab a cat by the tail and you will learn things you can’t learn any other way.“
  - Mark Twain

Try to make of it? Here’s my modest attempt:

Les, it’s the “Dawkins doesn’t know theology” play in reverse. You shouldn’t debate the crushing majority of believers (“clueless laymen”) and the simplistic beliefs they indeed hold, but instead go after the highly sophisticated sophistry of Catholic theologians and apologists.

The same answers apply. First, no double standards—if it’s okay for theists to hold simple beliefs, then it’s perfectly legitimate to attack these simple beliefs. Second, the courtier’s reply. But hey, the belief pushers would like nothing better than for atheists to limit themselves to an academic debate of theological poppycock that’s inaccessible to the masses of sheep; after all, pointing out the fallacies and inadequacies of what the sheep actually believe might just get them to doubt and worse, think.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Precisely the criticism often leveled at Dawkins, that he opposes a simplistic, straw-man Christianity and doesn’t know enough to argue against those whose religious fantasy is more elaborate. 

Really, ever talk to a schizophrenic?

Well, all I have to say is, my proof is the Physiological proof, so there:

Physiological Proof of God

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I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men.

-Robert G. Ingersoll

There was a meme floating around at work and on the tubes on this subject… Something like if we gave the $700 Billion to every American rather than bailing out the countries everyone would get $200,000. So why are we bailing out these failing companies?

OK, I agree with distributing the wealth back to us, since it’s our tax money in the first place, but I think whoever started that meme has to whip out the old calculator. Last time I checked, there are 300 million people in the US according to the census.  If we assume they all pay taxes and would get a piece of the sweet bailout pie, doesn’t that come out to $2,333? I could be wrong, but I think somebody needs to fix that meme. 

Anyway, I’d be willing to take an extra $2,500 for bailout.  I need a new computer and some other stuff.  Of course, with the government’s way of accounting, it probably would be $200,000 each, so even better.

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I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men.

-Robert G. Ingersoll

I think the point, as touched on by James, is that the Catholic church changes its position in the light of overwhelming evidence- evolution etc.  Hence it is easier to laugh at YEC’s etc.  With Catholics there is just the unprovable stuff left- God, Souls, Afterlife etc.

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To be human is to look at the vast, cold, uncaring universe, and to say “We stand alone, together.“

I’ve always found Catholics in general to be good debaters. But Catholic Theologians? They’re master baiters.

Positive- I didn’t mean to be condescending.  I know that you didn’t say that people would be justifiably angry about the atheist bus ad: I was just satirizing the people who probably will get exercised about it.

I don’t agree with your finding a bus ad an inappropriate forum for promoting atheism.  Given the pervasiveness of Christian messages in American society, from “God Bless America” to “Why do Atheists Hate America”, an atheist message might at least remind people that not all Americans are believers.  Perhaps someday atheists will even be judged fit to hold office- at the moment, they are the most hated minority in the country.  A little recognition might work wonders.

As far as the holidays go, I don’t really have a dog in that fight.  The Christians are welcome to appropriate December 25 and the Sunday after the first full moon of Spring for their purposes.  I think it’s good if everyone knows the true origins of these holidays, as pagan festivals, but as long as they serve to make people happy and promote peace, that’s fine with me.  We celebrate Christmas and Easter too, although not in a Christian fashion.

The only holidays I personally recognize are the solstices and equinoxes, because they go to the ground of our being as inhabitants of a cyclical planet.  There will, however, be a big party in my workshop next Feb. 12, which is of course the two hundredth birthday of Abraham Lincoln and Charles Darwin.  That should be celebrated.  Anyone who is in Vienna is cordially invited to come and raise a glass to Abe and Chuck.

And positive- I hope you don’t get the impression that I am anti-religion, or anti-Catholic.  As they say, some of my best friends, including my wife, are Catholic.  I’m basically just interested in peaceful coexistence, and a sustainable future.  Sometimes that requires exposing dangerous falsehoods, like the common fundamentalist belief that Jesus is coming soon, so it doesn’t matter, in fact it’s a sin, to do anything about the environment.

cheers from rainy Vienna.  Look me up if you ever get by this way, or are in the SF Bay Area in the summer.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Sure the catholic scholars are good at debating. The are very steadfast, right up to the point where their position cannot be still justified, at which point they try to silence those(heretics!) generating evidence to the contrary of their positions (see Copernicus, Galileo, et al).

And at the same time they tell their followers (all of whom are explicitly told they are even LOWER on the totem pole than priests) that if they pay any heed to such ‘heretics’ that they will suffer excommunication (literally god will not hear them-‘cause the priest told god to not listen)and burn forever in hell.

Meanwhile, they (church officials) conduct a parallel campaign, telling the wayward parishoner’s loved ones about the ‘peril’ that their child/husband/wife/parent/friends’ soul is in. Generating guilt in all involved.

And then: “well, yeah the earth isn’t the center of the universe”.“(and by the way, your grandad who believed that before we said it was okay?- In hell)“

and: “well, yeah, the ‘days’ of genesis are allegorical…the earth IS old.“ “(Uncle so and so the geologist who knew that before we did..Yep, in hell)“

And: “well, yeah, human beings most likely evolved from lower life forms over millenia…BUT the soul is exclusive to humans and ‘God Given’.“ “(believe different and it’s hell for you)“

Yep, good debaters they are. Parasites. I wish I could make a living defending someone else’s two thousand year old novellas.

Why try to make sense of it, Les?  Just challenge Aquinas to a wrestling match.  I want a ringside seat.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

As a Catholic, I recall the part of the Bible where Jesus says not to call others “raqa” which basically means “idiot” or “fool,“ and that if you call your neighbor these names that you will be liable to hell fire. So I do not think it wise for Catholics to write letters where they call other people idiots. As for the message; I suppose he is saying that Atheists should debate theologians, rather than laymen, but I am sure I have seen Atheists do so on some occasions. It wasn’t a Catholic, but I remember seeing a video of Christopher Hitchens debating a theologian.

Anyway, that is my take on the letter, for whatever it is worth.

I’d have to call bullshit.  Gas prices haven’t been down long enough for Ford or GM to notice people are buying SUVs more at all much less blame low gas prices for it.

Both companies have been dissing hybrids from day 1 even when Toyota began selling more than they could build.  They’ll jump at any excuse to say “Told you so”

The fact is, both Ford and GM are still circling the drain.  I’d need some more evidence before I’ll be willing to say people are going back to the gas guzzlers.  More likely, the culprit is that auto-makers are making more fuel efficient SUVs and people are willing to buy those rather than the old ones that got 12 and 14mpg.

In any case, gas prices aren’t going to be this low for long.  Oil prices are down because the economy is tanking.  When the economy turns around, look for oil to go back through the roof, probably faster than it did the first time.  I plan to make a bundle of money when that happens too.

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“Grab a cat by the tail and you will learn things you can’t learn any other way.“
  - Mark Twain

Funny to say that for it to be worth anything, there has to be a limited class of the wealthy.

The big question, I guess… “what should we really invest it in? How do we distribute the gains for the public good?“

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The Kidney Punch Of Legendary Peace

I acquire no understanding of myself except as I take account of objects, of the surroundings. I do not think unless I think of things — and there I find myself. - Bruce Lee

You’re right, positive.  “Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness’ sake,” is certainly a hate-filled message, and would arouse justifiable anger in any upstanding person.  It starts out asking people to question their belief, and we all know where that can lead: loss of self-righteousness, belief in evolution, and finally atheism.  Then the insidious ad delivers a double whammy: the injunction to “be good for goodness’ sake”.  Just imagine the chaos that would lead to, if people took it seriously!  They’d all become Communists, or Fascists, or maybe both at the same time!

I think this rather condescending response, and Les’ comments, all really tie into what I was talking about.

You are doing what first millennium Christians were doing when you use Christmas as an opportunity to try to get the Atheist message out as a way to rival the Christian one. That is what this bus ad is all about. And there is nothing wrong with that, Christians advertise Christianity all the time and Atheists certainly have the same right to promote Atheism. I did not say otherwise. But don’t then say that Christians in the first millennium were wrong to use December 25th as an opportunity to promote Christianity, or that they “bastardized” December 25th. There were aspects of the holiday that they retained from Paganism where appropriate, and Atheists have done the same with Christmas for their own benefit. Again, that doesn’t bother me that Atheists want to do so, and I suppose if I were an Atheist I would likely want to have my own holidays as well. But don’t then say that it was wrong for first millennium Christians to do virtually the same thing.

And I did not say that asking people to question their beliefs is wrong or bad for society. You’re putting words in my mouth, and lots of them. I said the likely response will be one of anger and probably won’t accomplish much. I doubt seriously that someone will see the bus ad and decide “Oh, ok, I needed to see that bus ad… now I know that believing in God is a waste of time.“ It wasn’t exactly that powerful of an ad. If you want to promote Atheism, a short and simplistic advertisement likely isn’t the way to go.

I did not intend to argue with anyone here. My main point, to begin with, was that I as a Christian do not share the views of those Christians mentioned above or those people on Fox News that there is something wrong with Atheist families celebrating Christmas in their own way.

And yes, I was not aware of the German word for Easter. But in Greek and in the Romance languages they use a word that derives from Passover. And what I meant was that the English word “Easter” derives from the Anglo-Saxon term.

locked up via cancel click eh? That’s soooo WinME

There was a meme floating around at work and on the tubes on this subject… Something like if we gave the $700 Billion to every American rather than bailing out the countries everyone would get $200,000. So why are we bailing out these failing companies?

The stupid really did hurt.

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Brother Spikey Mace of Patience

Unitarian Jihad Name: Get Yours
Unitarian Jihad Background

There was a rather interesting plan over at Stonekettle Station on this very subject. Worth a read.

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The Kidney Punch Of Legendary Peace

I acquire no understanding of myself except as I take account of objects, of the surroundings. I do not think unless I think of things — and there I find myself. - Bruce Lee

Heh, we think alike on this issue. I’d pay off my mortgage, install all kinds of “green” tech and buy an electric car to go shopping and run errands with. Buying a couple nice large flat screen TV’s would help out Best Buy, I hear they’re having problems. Would also love to landscape my yard with drought-resistant vegetation and add four-season front and back porches as well.

When do the American people get their bailout checks?

How come your posts are dated 2003? Seems like you are writing about 2008 event. Hmmm…

We’re not stupid.  We are content, spoiled and perhaps even biased.  We butcher the English language and set new standards for that butchery.  We rally towards causes that are not of much substance and choose to stay clear of the really tough subjects.  We love our prejudices and will defend them at all cost.  We will spend millions of dollars to save the Buluga whales while caring less about poverty in the inner cities. And yes, some of us vote for retarded politicians. 

But on the flip side.  We are a God fearing nation that eventually gets around to doing the right thing.  In our prejudices we have learned acceptance, in our biased judgment we have learned fairness.  Through our troubled past we have forged a far better future.  We are an experiment in Democracy; and while basically still a young nation we are setting the standards for the rest of the world to follow.  When you look at the fact that we are a county less than three centuries old, our accomplishments are amazing—astonishing even.

In the big scheme of things, we the American dream are only toddlers on the earth’s surface.  We are young and growing, making mistakes and learning from those mistakes.  But by no means are we stupid. 

Gonna go bake an apple pie…....Oh say can you see, yadda yadda yadda
   

Only if I need WoW gold, Seedy. Only if I need it.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I’d also buy a house and thus help the real estate market too.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

This is bullshit! hes gonna buy WOW gold….

Trickle up economics, ftw!

R u srs? I hope not cus ur not a corpration so u can pssibley thinkt hat this wuld werk. Its pretty dum cus ur not a corp so hiw culd u effeckt chaenge?

god bless

LOL! Damn straight. Makes about as much sense as the current plan, actually maybe even more. At least you weren’t the one who lost the money the first time around.

Until the British object to it publicly I’m hoping to keep the solution to the “Christian problem” under wraps.

Positive writes…

As I said, I am aware of the history of Christmas. Easter was the name of an Anglo-Saxon Pagan holiday; though this is exclusive to English, in other European languages they use a term that derives from the word “Passover.”

The Anglo-Saxon Pagan holiday was not named Easter. It was the celebration of the lunar Goddess Eostre and Easter likely took its name from that Goddess. The folks at ReligiousTolerance.org have more on Easter’s Pagan origins.

Either way, the idea that you would call it “bastardizing” for first millennium Christians to adopt the date that coincided with an important Pagan holiday but at the same time write a whole thread topic about how Atheists should not be criticized for adopting this Christian holiday and making it their own seems hypocritical.

Hypocritical? Not really. Atheists aren’t out to take over the holiday or to subjugate anyone over to our religious worldview by changing the symbology, we just ignore the parts we don’t agree with. The secular aspects of Christmas developed on their own in spite of the best efforts of the Church.

Christians, when they set about making their holidays coincidentally coincide with the Pagan festivals, did so with the express intent of conversion of the heathens. The Pagan festivals were quite popular and convincing folks to give them up wasn’t going well, so one of the more clever Popes decided the people could keep their feasts and they’d just rip out as much Pagan symbology as they could and replace it with Christian symbols. That’s why I used the word bastardization. It worked for the most part though a lot of Pagan rituals and symbols still remain much to the chagrin of the folks who put it all in place.

As I said, I think Atheists are perfectly within their rights to do so, and this does not bother me or offend me. I think I am probably in the minority among Christians on that position. But why, then, would you cast dispersions on Christians for doing basically the same thing? They did not “bastardize” these holidays, they made them their own, as Atheists want to do today. Seems like the same thing.

See the previous paragraph for why what the atheists are doing and what the Christians did are not the same thing.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Update for all you fans of the Hungarian language: Húsvét means “meat forbidden”, so it sounds to me like the name for Lent got attached to Easter somehow.  Köszönöm to Tiko, an excellent Q3 player, for this info.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

The global economic down turn will have the effect of reducing global demand and thereby keeping the cost of gas lower for longer, however in the medium to long term there isn’t much doubt which direction gas prices are going.

[url=http://www.energybulletin.net/node/32721]A revolutionary report on the future of oil[/email].

A person can only hope that Mr Obama’s policies will have an impact:

I’ll help our auto companies retool, so that the fuel-efficient cars of the future are built right here in America. And I’ll make it easier for the American people to afford these new cars.

not only for the health of the US auto market but for the well being of the environment too.

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“There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.” Sun Tzu

“When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President. Now I’m beginning to believe it.“ Clarence Darrow

Yet another P.S. for any language freaks out there.  Easter in Hungarian is Húsvét, which is not derived from Passover, which is Pészah.  I knew that “hús” means “meat”, and as far as I can figure out (my Hungarian is not that great, and all the explanations of the name I could find are in Hungarian) the name for Easter signifies the end of Lent, when eating meat was allowed again.  I’d be glad to hear from any Magyarok about this.

Oh, and Easter in Estonian is “Lihavõtted”, which also sounds as though it might not be derived from “Passover” or Latin Pascha.  But my knowledge of Estonian is nil, so I can’t say.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

P.S.  In the meantime, if you want some inspiration that not all is lost with the election of the Obamination, check out what the real Christians are doing: they are preparing for the coming battle.  Here’s a small sample:

If it all is going to heck, I’m actually looking forward to it. Not in a grim way, just, as a younger man, I’m looking forward to the struggle. I think men in their nature need the struggle, just like women need kids. Modern women have to dote on pets to replace kids, while modern men have to diddle around with video games and sports to replace the struggle.

God willing, the crap hits hard and soon, and it’ll give men problems to solve, crazies to shoot, hungry mouths to feed, women and kids to die protecting…life could be like the greatest video game ever.

I can hardly wait.

Oh, and positive:

Easter was the name of an Anglo-Saxon Pagan holiday; though this is exclusive to English, in other European languages they use a term that derives from the word “Passover.”

Not quite exclusive to English: in German, Easter is Ostern.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

I do think the bus ad would likely create anger more than anything else, but certainly people can advertise whatever message they like.

You’re right, positive.  “Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness’ sake,” is certainly a hate-filled message, and would arouse justifiable anger in any upstanding person.  It starts out asking people to question their belief, and we all know where that can lead: loss of self-righteousness, belief in evolution, and finally atheism.  Then the insidious ad delivers a double whammy: the injunction to “be good for goodness‘ sake”.  Just imagine the chaos that would lead to, if people took it seriously!  They’d all become Communists, or Fascists, or maybe both at the same time!

I just hope that people keep their children away from these buses, until a law can be passed to forbid this kind of hatemongering.  Then we can again rejoice in safe, loving ads, like this one.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

As I said, I am aware of the history of Christmas. Easter was the name of an Anglo-Saxon Pagan holiday; though this is exclusive to English, in other European languages they use a term that derives from the word “Passover.“

Either way, the idea that you would call it “bastardizing” for first millennium Christians to adopt the date that coincided with an important Pagan holiday but at the same time write a whole thread topic about how Atheists should not be criticized for adopting this Christian holiday and making it their own seems hypocritical. As I said, I think Atheists are perfectly within their rights to do so, and this does not bother me or offend me. I think I am probably in the minority among Christians on that position. But why, then, would you cast dispersions on Christians for doing basically the same thing? They did not “bastardize” these holidays, they made them their own, as Atheists want to do today. Seems like the same thing.

I want to believe!

What a bunch of dumbasses on Fox news!!!!! Fox news always mock atheists whenever they get a chance. It’s nothing more than a religious right wing propaganda station. It’s not a “real” news station at all.

What the hell, I say we make the Republicans wear yellow R’s on their clothing and send them all to work camps in Nebraska building bombs for our invasion of Canada to steal the secrets of socialized medicine.

I am apalled that you didn’t include any persecution of Christians in there, MM. Surely there is some presidential power that can be used for that.

What the hell, I say we make the Republicans wear yellow R’s on their clothing and send them all to work camps in Nebraska building bombs for our invasion of Canada to steal the secrets of socialized medicine.

For Firefox lockups I would say Flash is the culprit. It took me awhile to figure out which Flash to use with Ubuntu to get Firefox to stop crashing. I think what I finally did was not install flash after a clean re-install of Ubuntu. Open Firefox and go to Adobe.com, or a website that uses flash (a YouTube video should work too). Firefox will recognize it needs Flash and a wizard pops up. Click through and restart. I know I did a bunch of tinkering and can’t exactly remember, but I was able to fix the crashing.

For login issue try…

System->Preferences->Appearance->Visual Effects and set it to None.

Sounds like this is the issue...

From link above try:

It appears there is some issue that is currently ongoing between Xorg, Compiz, and old Intel drivers.

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Brother Spikey Mace of Patience

Unitarian Jihad Name: Get Yours
Unitarian Jihad Background

Easter, like Christmas, was originally a Pagan holiday which the Christians bastardized.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Marty, blow me.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Easter is a Christian holiday, last time I checked, and Easter is considered to be the most important Christian holiday. But for Christians Christmas is important too.

The point is it is a day to celebrate his birth, whenever that may have been.

Who cares when he was born? If anything, the big Christian celebration should be when he died, Easter, because, after all, that was the whole point for his little trip down to Earth, to save us sinners after being brutally tortured and nailed to a wooden cross. (But only if we “accept” him, of course. God can only do so much on his own to save us after all.)

I just love the Christian militant who says that people who don’t believe in God can’t know what love is because God tells us so right there in his little how-to manual, the Bible. So I guess if I beat my wife to death because she’s having a period, stone my next door neighbor who happens to be a dwarf and dared to go to church in his ungodly deformity, and kill my son just because God told me to so to test me on whether I really loved God or not, then I’d be defined as being good.