I’ll challenge nanodude, in this comment only on P5 content

nanodude: Are you interested in true reason, a true search for the truth, or, have you already made up your mind, like so many others, and no matter what evidence comes your way, its a settled matter?

Cuts both ways, you’ll have to listen to us too, if you don’t want to look like a hypocrite

HE is calling out to you, listen. He is tugging at your heart. Listen! Respond!

I hadn’t noticed, he could’ve been a little more obvious about it if he seriously wanted me to hear

He loves you more than the oceans and seas

Well (ignoring marine life) given that water itself is not concious – what is there to love about some body of water? I’s just a material thing, not able to think, respond, or love back, it’d be much like loving some rock you found

He sent His only begotten Eternal Son to die for you, YOU!

The 3rd+ time I’ve said this on SEB in a week;
Was it really a good thing that Jesus takes the blame for our sins? The victim suffers, the offender learns nothing because they havn’t been punished. Sure they should have the oppertunity to be forgiven, but only after they’ve suffered and been made aware of what effect they were having.

Besides, what kind of reasonable person/god is going to look on this and bless the executioner?

He has sent me as your ambassador to Him

How do you know this? What makes you think that you’re doing a good thing by trying to suck us into organised religion, which has a tendancy to be regimented and unnecessarily restrictive.
Look around this blog, you’ll see just how many ‘ambassadors of god’ we get, I’m in conversation with 3 at the moment.

I know deep down you are asking “Why, Father? Why? I don’t understand! Help me!”

You’d like to think that. Reality is not always what you’d like to think.

Come and see the flame that tyrants and despots have not extinguished. Come and see the passion that oppression has not squelched

Steadfastness and determination are very good.
You just need to aim the momentum – what is really the problem here? I don’t think it matters what someone believes so much, but how they are as a person, I want to help end opression and unnecessary restriction, and you have to accept that some of that does come from misinterpreted religion.

I’ve said before, I think god would think more of a samaritan than a preacher, because the samaritan deals with feelings and mindstate; the only things that really matter or are capable of giving any meaning whatsoever. The preacher on the other hand brings people into a different group, but doesn’t reform their faith in ways that end it’s misinterpretations of the true intended meaning of something like the bible.

You don’t even need to work on the belief level to get people to understand feelings, intentions, circumstances and reasons better

Come and see the great drama threading through twenty centuries of history and art. Handel weeping as he composes The Messiah. Da Vinci sighing as he portrays the Last Supper. Michelangelo stepping back from the rock-carved David

Is art really that important? Think of the gravity that some people face – in starving countries or warzones, then think whether god was really apportioning his resorces well by choosing to make a picture intstead

Come and see the changed lives: the alcoholic now dry, the embittered now joyful

It might work on those who havn’t dealt with these ideas before, but we have. The above is only a temporary effect, until you think more about it.

No, if you are a true believer, even if you are currently under Satan’s atheistic deception, you will be in Heaven, and you will not be my “indentured servant”. You and I will be brothers in Christ and all of this will be behind us.

And you think this is true – just because some book said so?

The Bible is very explicit on creation being a literal six 24 hour day process. It is also spoken of again in Exodus and elsewhere. Jesus Himself was a Creationist!  Read the Gospels. He spoke of Genesis as being literal history, and Adam and Eve being the first two people etc

Creation doesn’t need to be this way
Who really cares anyway? 6*24 hours? So what? It could’ve been any arbitary length of time and it wouldn’t make a difference. It doesn’t have any effect on the here and now, we should focus on the present

No, I am not insecure in my faith

Or that you choose faith because you’re insecure elsewhere? To make up for something lacking in life? To let you cope with a situation you otherwise couldn’t?

I sincerely believe the Bible is true, is the error proof written Word of God, Divinely inspired, and, if you die without having ever believed/trusted in Jesus Christ as your Savior, you will go to Hell forever. I do not want that. I want you to be saved

Why do you believe that? The bible was written by several people with different intentions and views on the world, there were probably errors/changes in translation, and it would’ve had to go through a human hand on writing, so it was fully open to corrupted meanings.

I think the bible’s intentions are a lot more benevolent and accurate when it is cherry picked.

if you die without having ever believed/trusted in Jesus Christ as your Savior, you will go to Hell forever

Why? Belief isn’t what makes a person good/bad, it’s not the thing that decides what they deserve. – you can’t say that a bastard who has faith has a better chance of heaven than a selfless volenteer who happened to be atheist.

Some here seem to think its a bad motivation to believe in Jesus to escape Hell. Not at all

You’d be believing in him purely for the selfish reason of wanting to get into heaven.

Paul tells Christians that in some future time we believers will be caught up to be with the Lord in the air. What do you think of this?

Meh…
There are more important things at stake than belief. Do you seriously thing a god would throw us into a world with no indication of his existence and punish those who held reservations? Is it even really such a crime to doubt just because you need to see it for yourself? After all, life seems to teach caution, to avoid being too exposed.

What will each of your reactions be? Will you say “The Bible was right, that NanoDude guy was right.”

What would you be saying if, when you die, it turns out to be, say, the islamic way and you get sent to hell for not beleiving the truth, despite there being no indication that it should be any more likely to be true.

Imagine that you then say to god all the good things you’ve done and he says
“I don’t care, you didn’t believe in muhamed, so you’re gonna burn”
Would that be fair? Would a reasonable or forgiving god of any religion do this?

Zilch, OK I can see the two flags now. That is weird. It’s likely what you think it is, your ISP must be using IP addresses normally associated with Germany.

Seeing as all those people are dead one can only think we missed the big show already.

Ahhh…that is where the escape clause of the wandering Jew comes to the rescue. Since he is supposedly still alive, the passage remains valid in Christian patch-it theory.

No sweat, cubiclegrrl.  I can take a joke, and besides, I’m an Amuuricun….

Hey, thanks for the local perspective—kewl to know, and the Beethoven-Hitler thing made me grin.  Always appreciated!  (And thanks for taking the joke in the insouciant spirit in which was intended—I wondered whether I was pushing it too far with that…)

Les, I cleared the cache, and I still see two flags: the comments I sent from home are in Austria, and the ones from the workshop, such as this current one, are in Germany.  Could it be because I have a new ISP here?  I don’t think there’s a Dark Materials window in the doorway of my workshop.

cubiclegrrl- yes, the Austrians have a love-hate relationship with the Germans.  As they say, people here would like to believe that Beethoven was Austrian and Hitler German.  Speaking of the Anschluss- when Hitler was here in Vienna, he spoke from a balcony of the Kunsthistorisches Museum.  So that he wouldn’t have to walk up the stairs, they built an elevator for him, which is still in use.  It’s not open to the public, but I’ve been in it a couple of times, because I have friends who work there.  A very nice elevator, and a rather creepy feeling.

Zilch, try clearing your browser cache. The little flag I see is for Austria.

I was going to quote Fawlty Towers- “You started it, you invaded Poland”, then I decided not to…

Les- why am I suddenly in Germany?  This is not going to go over well with my family…

Anschluss?

Although I s’pose that people over in those parts slap the face of anyone who utters that word…  It was a joke, honest!  [ducks and runs]

Oops, now I see: my workshop is now in Germany.  I thought my beer at lunch tasted rather piefkisch…  I guess it’s the new server.