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	<title>Comments on: Another example of faith standing in the way of progress.</title>
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	<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/</link>
	<description>What the fuck is wrong with you people?</description>
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		<title>By: zilch</title>
		<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/comment-page-1/#comment-58924</link>
		<dc:creator>zilch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/#comment-58924</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;It’s an issue that becomes more ticklish when the people holding the belief are in the majority.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;
...and more ticklish still when they are well armed&#8230;
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you mean consumerism.&#160; Fouling the air with excess CO2 is just one of its sacraments.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;img src=&quot;http://jenkinsonline.net/images/smileys/lol.gif&quot; width=&quot;19&quot; height=&quot;19&quot; alt=&quot;LOL&quot; style=&quot;border:0;&quot; /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span id="co_58924"><blockquote><p>It’s an issue that becomes more ticklish when the people holding the belief are in the majority.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>
&#8230;and more ticklish still when they are well armed&#8230;
</p>
<blockquote><p>I think you mean consumerism.&nbsp; Fouling the air with excess CO2 is just one of its sacraments.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>
<img src="http://jenkinsonline.net/images/smileys/lol.gif" width="19" height="19" alt="LOL" style="border:0;" /></p>
</span><div class="comment-toolbar" style="text-align: right"><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Reply('58924','zilch'); return false;" title="Reply"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png';"/></a><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Quote('58924','zilch'); return false;" title="Quote"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png';"/></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Michael Peacock</title>
		<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/comment-page-1/#comment-58923</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Peacock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/#comment-58923</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;How do we balance respect for people’s mistaken beliefs with the need for progress?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It&#8217;s an issue that becomes more ticklish when the people holding the belief are in the majority.&#160; At that point, I think they get what they want since that&#8217;s the democratic way.&#160; When you&#8217;re in the minority, however, then society will only go so far to &#8220;respect&#8221; your beliefs.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;As a result of our religion of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere ...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think you mean consumerism.&#160; Fouling the air with excess CO2 is just one of its sacraments.
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span id="co_58923"><blockquote><p>How do we balance respect for people’s mistaken beliefs with the need for progress?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s an issue that becomes more ticklish when the people holding the belief are in the majority.&nbsp; At that point, I think they get what they want since that&#8217;s the democratic way.&nbsp; When you&#8217;re in the minority, however, then society will only go so far to &#8220;respect&#8221; your beliefs.</p>
<blockquote><p>As a result of our religion of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere &#8230;</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think you mean consumerism.&nbsp; Fouling the air with excess CO2 is just one of its sacraments.</p>
</span><div class="comment-toolbar" style="text-align: right"><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Reply('58923','Michael Peacock'); return false;" title="Reply"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png';"/></a><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Quote('58923','Michael Peacock'); return false;" title="Quote"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png';"/></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: zilch</title>
		<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/comment-page-1/#comment-58922</link>
		<dc:creator>zilch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Another ticklish issue.&#160; How do we balance respect for people&#8217;s mistaken beliefs with the need for progress?&#160; In other words: what price are we willing to pay for what progress?&#160; While this rama&#8217;s bridge issue seems close to the ridiculous edge for us Westerners, what about &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/397.html&quot;&gt;mining uranium&lt;/a&gt; on sacred Native American lands?&#160; If that seems too obviously on the other end, there are any number of issues in between: for instance, the Native Hawaiian objections to the observatory on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.moolelo.com/maunakea-latimes.html&quot;&gt;Mauna Kea&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And what about this, in some ways a mirror-image of rama&#8217;s bridge: the Northwest Passage is now &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/aug/28/climatechange.internationalnews?gusrc=rss&amp;feed;=networkfront&quot;&gt;free of ice&lt;/a&gt; for the first time in recorded history.&#160; As a result of our religion of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, arctic ice has melted to the point that it&#8217;s now possible to sail without an icebreaker from Asia to Europe- a mere 15,000 kilometers, as opposed to the previous route via the Panama Canal of 24,000 km.&#160; What progress!&#160; How much cheaper it will be to ship cars to Europe!&#160; Of course, there are a few flies in the ointment&#8230;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span id="co_58922"><p>Another ticklish issue.&nbsp; How do we balance respect for people&#8217;s mistaken beliefs with the need for progress?&nbsp; In other words: what price are we willing to pay for what progress?&nbsp; While this rama&#8217;s bridge issue seems close to the ridiculous edge for us Westerners, what about <a href="http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/397.html">mining uranium</a> on sacred Native American lands?&nbsp; If that seems too obviously on the other end, there are any number of issues in between: for instance, the Native Hawaiian objections to the observatory on <a href="http://www.moolelo.com/maunakea-latimes.html">Mauna Kea</a>.</p>
<p>And what about this, in some ways a mirror-image of rama&#8217;s bridge: the Northwest Passage is now <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/aug/28/climatechange.internationalnews?gusrc=rss&feed;=networkfront">free of ice</a> for the first time in recorded history.&nbsp; As a result of our religion of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, arctic ice has melted to the point that it&#8217;s now possible to sail without an icebreaker from Asia to Europe- a mere 15,000 kilometers, as opposed to the previous route via the Panama Canal of 24,000 km.&nbsp; What progress!&nbsp; How much cheaper it will be to ship cars to Europe!&nbsp; Of course, there are a few flies in the ointment&#8230;</p>
</span><div class="comment-toolbar" style="text-align: right"><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Reply('58922','zilch'); return false;" title="Reply"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png';"/></a><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Quote('58922','zilch'); return false;" title="Quote"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png';"/></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bahamat</title>
		<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/comment-page-1/#comment-58921</link>
		<dc:creator>Bahamat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The upshot of it all is that thanks to a majority of the Indian population being True Believers™ ships are forced to travel all the way around the peninsula because a canal is out of the question&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That&#8217;s democracy&#8230; but it could be a lot worse and I don&#8217;t have any better fool-proof (or at least somewhat) suggesions&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Government isn&#8217;t in a position where it can afford to directly kick sand, I think, as ***dave suggested in other words, it needs to keep it&#8217;s cool to keep opposition down. Perhaps there&#8217;s an alternative plan that though might be less efficient, might cause less problem.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Once violated though, a &#8216;sacred&#8217; or environmental area it&#8217;s easier to justify devolopment (ie recent athens fires freed up space that was being used by trees, etc)
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span id="co_58921"><blockquote><p>The upshot of it all is that thanks to a majority of the Indian population being True Believers™ ships are forced to travel all the way around the peninsula because a canal is out of the question</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s democracy&#8230; but it could be a lot worse and I don&#8217;t have any better fool-proof (or at least somewhat) suggesions</p>
<p>Government isn&#8217;t in a position where it can afford to directly kick sand, I think, as ***dave suggested in other words, it needs to keep it&#8217;s cool to keep opposition down. Perhaps there&#8217;s an alternative plan that though might be less efficient, might cause less problem.</p>
<p>Once violated though, a &#8216;sacred&#8217; or environmental area it&#8217;s easier to justify devolopment (ie recent athens fires freed up space that was being used by trees, etc)</p>
</span><div class="comment-toolbar" style="text-align: right"><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Reply('58921','Bahamat'); return false;" title="Reply"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png';"/></a><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Quote('58921','Bahamat'); return false;" title="Quote"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png';"/></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MisterMook</title>
		<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/comment-page-1/#comment-58920</link>
		<dc:creator>MisterMook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;The &lt;i&gt;proper &lt;/i&gt;course is for the faithful of India to bankrupt themselves by cutting the &#8220;bridge&#8221; from the rocks and transporting it elsewhere, and then to pay to train another army of monkeys to build a new bridge over the new shipping channel. Oh yes, and there should be lots of singing and dancing.
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span id="co_58920"><p>The <i>proper </i>course is for the faithful of India to bankrupt themselves by cutting the &#8220;bridge&#8221; from the rocks and transporting it elsewhere, and then to pay to train another army of monkeys to build a new bridge over the new shipping channel. Oh yes, and there should be lots of singing and dancing.</p>
</span><div class="comment-toolbar" style="text-align: right"><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Reply('58920','MisterMook'); return false;" title="Reply"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png';"/></a><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Quote('58920','MisterMook'); return false;" title="Quote"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png';"/></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: K. Engels</title>
		<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/comment-page-1/#comment-58919</link>
		<dc:creator>K. Engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;BJP have their knickers in a twist yet again&#8230; What a shock!
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span id="co_58919"><p>BJP have their knickers in a twist yet again&#8230; What a shock!</p>
</span><div class="comment-toolbar" style="text-align: right"><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Reply('58919','K. Engels'); return false;" title="Reply"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png';"/></a><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Quote('58919','K. Engels'); return false;" title="Quote"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png';"/></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ***Dave</title>
		<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/comment-page-1/#comment-58918</link>
		<dc:creator>***Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/#comment-58918</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;My &#8220;two thoughts&#8221; sort of merged in the writing of the above.&#160; Apologies.&#160; They were:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;1.&#160; Kicking sand in people&#8217;s faces is bad politics.&#160; Insulting someone&#8217;s mother is a bad negotiating tool.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;2.&#160; We sacrifice lots of &#8220;progress&#8221; for emotional, aesthetic, and ideological reasons.&#160; Indeed, a lot depends on what one considers &#8220;progress.&#8221;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span id="co_58918"><p>My &#8220;two thoughts&#8221; sort of merged in the writing of the above.&nbsp; Apologies.&nbsp; They were:</p>
<p>1.&nbsp; Kicking sand in people&#8217;s faces is bad politics.&nbsp; Insulting someone&#8217;s mother is a bad negotiating tool.</p>
<p>2.&nbsp; We sacrifice lots of &#8220;progress&#8221; for emotional, aesthetic, and ideological reasons.&nbsp; Indeed, a lot depends on what one considers &#8220;progress.&#8221;</p>
</span><div class="comment-toolbar" style="text-align: right"><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Reply('58918','***Dave'); return false;" title="Reply"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png';"/></a><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Quote('58918','***Dave'); return false;" title="Quote"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png';"/></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ***Dave</title>
		<link>http://stupidevilbastard.com/2007/09/another_example_of_faith_standing_in_the_way_of_progress/comment-page-1/#comment-58917</link>
		<dc:creator>***Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Two thoughts:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Is there any doubt that the Indian government was just plain old stupid taking this course?&#160; Rational or not, kicking sand in people&#8217;s faces about their religious faith is about as stupid as doing the same about any highly charged emotion item.&#160; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Beyond that, imponderable and emotional associations often trump pragmatism.&#160; So, for example, if someone said, &#8220;Hey, we could do something that will make a lot easier and cheaper for companies to drill oil if we demolish that pesky Mt Rushmore ... and, oh, by the way, it&#8217;s not a very pretty sculpture and there&#8217;s no intrinsic value and, by the way, Teddy Roosevelt really shouldn&#8217;t be up there,&#8221; people might very well go &#8220;batshit insane&#8221; (and predictably so).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The same if someone noted that running a rail line down the middle of the Grand Canyon&#8212;or through Yellowstone&#8212;would be the most efficient route for moving coal from southern Utah mines to power plans in Southern California, a lot of people would go batshit insane.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We all make a lot of decisions based on emotional considerations trumping &#8220;making progress&#8221; ones.&#160; Religious ones are a part of that&#8212;and certainly shouldn&#8217;t be absolute, but neither are they negligable.&#160; It&#8217;s crazy (so to speak) to not take those sorts of factors&#8212;&#8220;God, Mom, and Apple Pie&#8221;&#8212;into consideration for political purposes, if nothing else.&#160; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;By doing so, the Indian government has politically poisoned the well, such that, yes, folks are counter-reacting beyond armchair rationality.&#160; But it&#8217;s not, I&#8217;d argue, just a matter of &#8220;irrationality vs. progress,&#8221; any more than folks&#8217; reaction to drilling in ANWR is just &#8220;irrationality vs. progress.&#8221;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<span id="co_58917"><p>Two thoughts:</p>
<p>Is there any doubt that the Indian government was just plain old stupid taking this course?&nbsp; Rational or not, kicking sand in people&#8217;s faces about their religious faith is about as stupid as doing the same about any highly charged emotion item.&nbsp; </p>
<p>Beyond that, imponderable and emotional associations often trump pragmatism.&nbsp; So, for example, if someone said, &#8220;Hey, we could do something that will make a lot easier and cheaper for companies to drill oil if we demolish that pesky Mt Rushmore &#8230; and, oh, by the way, it&#8217;s not a very pretty sculpture and there&#8217;s no intrinsic value and, by the way, Teddy Roosevelt really shouldn&#8217;t be up there,&#8221; people might very well go &#8220;batshit insane&#8221; (and predictably so).</p>
<p>The same if someone noted that running a rail line down the middle of the Grand Canyon&#8212;or through Yellowstone&#8212;would be the most efficient route for moving coal from southern Utah mines to power plans in Southern California, a lot of people would go batshit insane.</p>
<p>We all make a lot of decisions based on emotional considerations trumping &#8220;making progress&#8221; ones.&nbsp; Religious ones are a part of that&#8212;and certainly shouldn&#8217;t be absolute, but neither are they negligable.&nbsp; It&#8217;s crazy (so to speak) to not take those sorts of factors&#8212;&#8220;God, Mom, and Apple Pie&#8221;&#8212;into consideration for political purposes, if nothing else.&nbsp; </p>
<p>By doing so, the Indian government has politically poisoned the well, such that, yes, folks are counter-reacting beyond armchair rationality.&nbsp; But it&#8217;s not, I&#8217;d argue, just a matter of &#8220;irrationality vs. progress,&#8221; any more than folks&#8217; reaction to drilling in ANWR is just &#8220;irrationality vs. progress.&#8221;</p>
</span><div class="comment-toolbar" style="text-align: right"><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Reply('58917','***Dave'); return false;" title="Reply"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/reply.png';"/></a><a href="#comment" onclick="CF_Quote('58917','***Dave'); return false;" title="Quote"><img src="http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png" border="0" onmouseover="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote_over.png';" onmouseout="this.src='http://stupidevilbastard.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-toolbar/images/quote.png';"/></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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