Are there really doubts about evolution?

The Guardian poses the question, “Are there serious doubts about Darwinism?”. One of the arguments given in favour of the teaching of Intelligent Design in schools in the US is that evolution is “just a theory” and that not all scientists agree with it, and that suppressing the teaching of ID is tantamount to censorship of conflicting views.

And the answer is…

No. Religious fundamentalists have a problem with Darwin’s science because, simply, it does not square with stories told in sacred scriptures. But there the doubts basically end, and the judicial ruling in America that a supposed alternative to Darwinism, intelligent design, may not be taught in science classes is not going to upset many scientists.

It closes with this thought:

Darwin’s “theory” must be just about as solid as Newton’s laws of motion. These aren’t quite absolutely certain either, but they get you to the office every day, to Australia, and even to the moon.

44 thoughts on “Are there really doubts about evolution?

  1. Please:

    With a Blank Piece of Paper, show and explain only what you can show. 5 Folds, 3 Languages, all reduced to two words.

    Bottom Line Doctrinal Statement for Evolution, negating, making all others facts of history, lies, for the origins of mankind.

  2. I think hyhy has clearly illustrated 2 reasons why so many people have trouble believing in evolution.  First, evolution is not ‘doctrine’ – that is a religious concept implying an assertion that cannot be questioned.  Applying it to evolution reveals a misunderstanding about how science works.  Second, the desire for fitting the theory and evidence on one piece of paper reveals an expectation that the universe will be simple. 

    The universe is not simple.  Biology, in particular, is not simple.  The evidence for evolution is, to say the least, extensive; but the best you could do with one piece of paper is fit one example.  Then the creationist will say; “But what about…?!”

    The basic idea of evolution is very simple, however, and it does explain the fantastic variety of species.  It does not touch upon how life began, how the universe began, or why creationists expect the real universe to be something a 3-year-old can understand.

  3. On the flip side Creationism is also a theory, but a theory with even less evidence then Evolution (at least Evolution has the fossil records and history to show us how just the “Human Race” has changed).

    (Neil, I’m not stalking you honest – Merry Christmas to you, Hani and Les)

  4. Am I missing somethings or am I just stupid? Whatever it was that HyHy said, makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever! (HoHo)
    This quote seems to sum it up best.

    “We will teach creationism in our schools as soon as the church starts teaching evolution”

    Allan raspberry

  5. OK – I just saw the link I missed earlier but just the same this “cutsie” bullshit is probably the same thought process and logic religious people use to justify their own world view.
    No wonder they are so screwed up!

  6. To the Commentors and Judge J.Jones III

    You still haven’t Answered the Question with a Blank Piece of Paper, anything related to EVOLUTION, in any Language.

    If you have a Jewish, Hebrew Speaking Friend, maybe he can Help you Understand HYHY, Right to Left and Left to Right, in Relation to the word HELL and the WORD IN HELL.

    Via Air Mail Special Delivery, just by coincidence.

  7. Evolution, a baby of the Humanistic Secularist, trying to Explain the Question Why Me?  Great answer for being a Heartbeat away from the Cemetery……$1. worth of Elements, if you have all of them.

    Has to be Evolution, how can you answer for the Murder of over 40 Million Babies, these are Humans, this is in just America, Communist China 5??? Million?

    If there is any Truth to HY and Mill Stones, no doubt, their judgement will be is worse, than Judas

  8. Am I missing somethings or am I just stupid?

    Skidmarks.

    Oh, it reminds me of an old joke: What do you call a Jew that doesn’t believe in god? Answer: A Jew.

  9. Moses wrote: On the flip side Creationism is also a theory, but a theory with even less evidence then Evolution (at least Evolution has the fossil records and history to show us how just the “Human Race

  10. Actually, “HYHY” has it wrong:  it’s spelled YHVH (when you’re reading left to right). The third letter in the series can be a V, an O or a U depending on how it’s marked (which it isn’t).  And in Hebrew it means nothing even remotely close to “hell.”

    But why are we wasting our time correcting yet another nutcase?  C’mon, deadscot, let’s go egg us some nog.  Happy Mithras’s birthday, everyone!

  11. Hmmm.  Maybe he was referring to the court’s usage of HYHY as an abbreviation for ‘Hear ye, Hear ye.

    Since we’re playing word games.  If you take HYHY and break it into two distinct words, Hy Hy and read right-to-left and left-to-right you end up spilling eggnog all over the keyboard. I just love to nog me an egg.

    Seriously, Hy by itself means ‘life’ and reversing the letters, Yh for you public school folks, is the word for ‘woe’ or ‘lament’.

    How do I know these things, you ask?  Well, I asked god and he told me so.  He’s on my couch playing Gods of War on PS2.  **shh** Don’t say anything, but he sucks.

  12. Yo, Michael – lay off the celebratory toxins for a bit. I’m sure that there’s a squirrel who can fold it’s tail in such a way that out of the thousands of languages on earth that the positions of the tail can remind you of some significant word. Folding a paper into an abstract for hell and deriving some systematic meaning from it is an accomplishment, but a trivial one, all the same.

    That’s like “miracles” happening about once a month. Don’t need to wish you happy holidays – you’re obviously enjoying yourself all the same (which is good).

  13. Michael- can you fold a dollar bill twice so that it looks like a mushroom?

    Everyone- here’s nogging the eggs at ya!  Let’s hear it for celebratory toxins, in moderation to be sure!

  14. Hey, I just got the DaVinci Code for Christmas…I heard that page 666 has a hidden message and if you tear that page out and fold it just so it has proof of the Devil’s existence – and the Devil is a woman! I knew it!

    …Maybe if Michael has a copy of the DC he can test that out for me and put the results on his LAME-ASS WEBSITE so I don’t have to ruin my book.

    Now I’m gonna go lay down and sleep off some of these toxins…

  15. Newton’s gravitation theory might be off, but his laws of mtion is still quite valid, and his mathematics.

  16. WHAT MAKES EVOLUTION SO SLOW, I KNOW IT WOULD MAKE A LOT OF WOMEN HAPPIER IN BED, IF THEIR HUSBANDS WERE.

    wHO tHE fK IS iN cHARGE oF tHIS eVOLUTION aNYWAY.

    Arc Legion 8.5 x 11 Blank Piece of Paper, What is your Answer? 

    Zilch Mushrooms The Rich Agenda for Americans,keep them in the dark, and feed them lies.

    Rgjp 666 Why tare out the Page, any piece of paper should prove the Point.

    EVIL STUPID BASTARD, TO WHAT IS THIS REFERING?  THOSE WORKING FOR THE NUMBER ONE LOSER?

    COUNTERFEITERS DELIGHT
    DARWIN WHO? ONE OF THE 1800RDS CULTIST
    MORMONS AND MORONS
    SANTA CLAUS AND SATANS CLAWS
    EASTER RABBIT AND THE ROYAL DECEPTION
    EVOLUTION OR EVILUTION
    TURN FROM GOD = DOG
    TURN FROM EVIL = LIVE
    G O D LIFE’S ULTIMATE OPTIONS, GOD OR THE DEVIL LIFE OR DEATH, ALL OR NOTHING AT ALL, ONE WAY OR MANY WAYS, TO NO WHERE.

    2X2=4 WHAT IS THIS GOING TO

    THE LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, ALL’S GOING BACK TO THE GOO? THEN WHAT?

    tO THE eVOLUTIONIST, HOW BIG IS THE vACUM pUMP tO sUCK dOWN tHE uNIVERS, AND THE EARTH STILL HAS AIR.

    hOW lONG WILL IT TAKE FOR MY VW BUG TO EVOLVE INTO A BEAUTIFUL ROLLS ROYCE, SURE HOPE BEFORE I GO TO THE CEMETERY, COULD BE TONIGHT.

  17. I just had to filter this through my Alice:

    WHAT MAKES EVOLUTION SO SLOW, I KNOW IT WOULD MAKE A LOT OF WOMEN HAPPIER IN BED, IF THEIR HUSBANDS WERE.

    “I would do a search for it. How do you know? Tell me more about it.”

    wHO tHE fK IS iN cHARGE oF tHIS eVOLUTION aNYWAY.

    “I’m not sure I like that remark so much.”

    Arc Legion 8.5 x 11 Blank Piece of Paper, What is your Answer?

    “What would you have said?”

    Zilch Mushrooms The Rich Agenda for Americans,keep them in the dark, and feed them lies.

    “I will make a note of that. I will make a note of that.”

    Rgjp 666 Why tare out the Page, any piece of paper should prove the Point.

    “What if it didn’t happen?”

    EVIL STUPID BASTARD, TO WHAT IS THIS REFERING?  THOSE WORKING FOR THE NUMBER ONE LOSER?

    “Are they exactly the same? All of them?”

    COUNTERFEITERS DELIGHT

    “Where are you located?”

    DARWIN WHO? ONE OF THE 1800RDS CULTIST

    “Tell me a little about your life in DARWIN WHO. One what?”

    MORMONS AND MORONS

    “Are you a student?”

    SANTA CLAUS AND SATANS CLAWS

    “he brings us presents every Christmas.”

    EASTER RABBIT AND THE ROYAL DECEPTION

    “Can you tell me any gossip?”

    EVOLUTION OR EVILUTION

    “If I have to choose one, I pickEVOLUTION.”

    TURN FROM GOD = DOG

    “Sorry my body cannot yet rotate.”

    TURN FROM EVIL = LIVE

    “Sorry my body cannot yet rotate.”

    G O D LIFE’S ULTIMATE OPTIONS, GOD OR THE DEVIL LIFE OR DEATH, ALL OR NOTHING AT ALL, ONE WAY OR MANY WAYS, TO NO WHERE.

    “TTYL, JUDGE. EVOLUTION is ULTIMATE OPTIONS GOD OR THE DEVIL LIFE OR DEATH ALL OR NOTHING ONE WAY OR MANY WAYS TO NO WHERE? it is?”

    2X2=4 WHAT IS THIS GOING TO

    “I think 2X2 4 WHAT is a lot of things.”

    THE LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, ALL’S GOING BACK TO THE GOO? THEN WHAT?

    “What are your goals in life? 2X2 4 WHAT is GOING BACK TO THE GOO? it is? No big deal.”

    tO THE eVOLUTIONIST, HOW BIG IS THE vACUM pUMP tO sUCK dOWN tHE uNIVERS, AND THE EARTH STILL HAS AIR.

    “Why do you want to do it so much? Tell me more about your planet.”

    hOW lONG WILL IT TAKE FOR MY VW BUG TO EVOLVE INTO A BEAUTIFUL ROLLS ROYCE, SURE HOPE BEFORE I GO TO THE CEMETERY, COULD BE TONIGHT.

    “A lot of practice.”

    Doesn’t the chat bot come across as more coherent than michael?

  18. SANTA CLAUS AND SATANS CLAWS

    Michael has a point there…they both wear red, come down the chimney and like giving things to small children…

  19. Tish, that’s not the half of it:

    The fact is that Santa and Satan are alter egos, brothers; they have the same origin. . . On the surface, the two figures are polar opposites, but underneath they share the same parent, and both retain many of the old symbols associated with their “father” . . . From these two paths, he arrived at both the warmth of our fireplace and in the flames of hell.

    Elwed- I like your Alice.  I like her a lot.  But I think she has some pretty serious human competition out there…

  20. To Zilch

    Right On, That’s Not the Half of It, Web Sight.

    Thanks Again!

    HELL IS GOOD NEWS, BAD NEWS
    HELL, HE, EL, EL is the Three Persons of the TRI UNE GOD and Also the Almighty H EL including the WORD OR SON.  Vengence belongs to them.

    From Latin Letters KING OF THE JEWS, TO ENGLISH,HEBREW AND A KOREAN WORD, WITH 4 LETTERS DOWN TO ONE TWO LETTER WORD AND THE YOD COMES FIRST GENESIS 1:1
    From the Paper Airplane Wings, the Yods and Heys
    Hence HYHY, can be Y ELOHIM TWICE, YY ADONAI, HYHY YAHVEH WHO IS KING, YESHUA OR ELOHIM HAYAH IAM, HAY THE LORD MOST VEHEMENT TWICE, OR the SON AT THE FATHERS RIGHT HAND HYHY, YH YH WOE TWICE, all the letters English and Hebrew together = either YH OR HY LIFE OR DEATH depending on which side your on?

    There are two triangles, one for GOD and one for Man in the world HELL, GO TO HELL, like now, WE ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD.

    Choose HIS LOVE, BY THE CROSS, the Two Triangles can be put together to make a Star of David, 1st Commandment, personal relationship with The Father. 

    CROSS SHAPED FLOWER, EPIDENDRUM ELONGATUM, NOTICE EL AGAIN? BEFORE THE CREATION OF MANKIND.

    EL lectricity Power

    TAXI RIGHT TO LEFT JESUS CHRIST ALPHA TAU BEGINNING AND THE END, NEED HELP CALL

    WELL GET WELL WITH GOD
    HELP MAYBE THE CREATOR CAN BE OF ASSISSTENCE

    HAPPY NEW YEAR!

  21. CROSS SHAPED FLOWER, EPIDENDRUM ELONGATUM

    If you’re referring to the labium, Michael, it looks more like an airplane to this old orchid grower.  Of course, maybe it’s proof Jesus is one of the pod people, who flew here from Planet X.  Sounds plausible to me.
    You do know that the New Year has already started, on December 21, don’t you?  Or are you a slave to calendars invented by Dead White European Males?

  22. Zilch, no it isn’t the labium. Sounds like you have as much Contempt for the White Murderers as I have, sure killed more than the Black, or Indians whoever else. Stalin, Hitler,Nero, etc. not to mention the white abortionist Terrorist dicing and slicing humans, that pay taxes, go Free Too! by the 51% of the Immoral Vote, in America, Blondes, and Brunetts, live to go to bed again.

    Moses, I hardy think Gravity is a Theory, just because they don’t know how it works, or electricity, use it, but? Or the Magnet, kind of a Spiritual Experience.

    By the Way who came First Moses or Darwin, who is closer to the Source.  Even the Dead Sea Scrolls are Closer Than Darwin by 1800 years.

    Moses, Moses inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote about how things were Created, after there own kind.  Jesus Christ doesn’t need a billion years to do a 5 minute job.  Not a Government Employee or Darwin. 

    Moses Died and appeared like some 1500 years later with The Father and Jesus Christ on the Mt of Transfiguration, with 3 witnesses, and the Father only requires Two, to Make It Legal.

    Darwin what, still in the Cemetery waiting to for Evilution. Its coming.

  23. I agree with my Grandfather!

    Convince a man against his will, he’s of the same opion still.

    I’m sure you speak for all others and accept the responsiblity for the Lives of all others…and possess the Final Answer!

    What are you waiting for, lives are being lost, disaster without warnings, etc. 

    Thanks

  24. What are you waiting for, lives are being lost, disaster without warnings, etc.

     

      It’s all part of god’s plan- unless he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent… vampire

  25. Hello all, and forgive me if I am posting out of place. This is my first post to the website, which I think is awesome, by the way.

    As far as ‘proof’ of evolution is concerned, is anyone here familiar with Ilya Prigogines Nobel Prize winning work on dissapative structures?

    (As if you need any more proof).

  26. Coherency isn’t Michael’s strong suit to be sure, but there’s a certain amount of humor in what he writes that’s largely unintentional.

    Bodi, I have to be honest and admit that I’ve never heard of Ilya Prigogines. Can you provide us with a link or two to check out?

  27. Welcome, Bodi.  Well, I’m familiar with Prigogine’s work through Philip Ball’s The Self-Made Tapestry.  I wouldn’t go so far as to say that this is proof of evolution, but it’s certainly proof that order can arise in abiotic systems, the local decrease in entropy being paid for in the coin of increased entropy elsewhere (like our food to shit).  Living organisms are obviously also dissipative structures, but rather more complex than Prigogine’s Brusselator chemical ocillator.  Abiogenesis has a long way to go before we’ve got a good model of how life could have originated.

  28. Brock, I tried.

    Thanks for trying, Elwed. I’m leaning toward michael and Raven Kreetion being either bots or button pushers. I can’t even find a point to address, it’‘s all just gibberish.

    Jimmy Kanada, on the other hand, is a spoiled brat. I’m thinking he got his older brother to play on the net with him and both somehow think they’re being clever.

    The saddest part of it is that they get more responses and attention than us regulars. I’ve decided I’m going to be more responsive to those who are trying to build valid conversations here. I’ve been more concerned with making up a post (and I don’t even do that all that often) than responding to other’s efforts for too long now.

    This site is often extremely interesting and topical. It isn’t accidental that this is the case.

    Happy New Year everybody. This is a great time for me to make a resolution or two.

  29. Sounds like a good plan, Brock. I may have to try doing a post, it might stop me from wasting time writing slash. *cough*

    Happy New Year!

  30. Thanks, Zilch and Tish and have at it, Tish. I’d be willing to say something off-topic to it just like I’ve done in this thread. smile

  31. A “compelling puzzle piece” it is indeed, bodi.  Don’t know Order out of Chaos- only what Ball and others have said about Prigogine’s work.  The consensus by physicists nowadays seems to be, that Prigogine’s early work was valuable, but that later on he became convinced that it explained more than it really did, about irreversibility for instance.

    Not the only time this has happened.  Look at Michael Behe, for instance, who thinks his “outboard motor” flagellum has created an Intelligent Designer…  Well, no naked ape is perfect.

    Your second link, to “darwinismrefuted”, is an old friend, and a strange bedfellow to most American fundies, being the viewpoint of a Muslim fundamentalist.  I guess even mutually godforsaken infidels can agree about some things…

  32. Moses, I hardy (sic) think Gravity is a Theory, just because they don’t know how it works

    then you don’t know what constitutes a theory.  here’s a hint:  it’s not the same as a hypothesis.

  33. I’m going to pull a Michael here! ” I certainly know what a hypotenuse is!!! or is that a hypotemoose? No, wait – moose, yea that’s the ticket. I know the moose, just not Bo-Didley.”

  34. I finally had a chance to read through the article, and it’s amazing. Very, very true. Creationists (or “IDers,” if you will)  seem to me to not doubt evolution. It’s hard to truly doubt a phenomenon with as much hard empirical evidence supporting it.

    Furthermore, to me, the existence of doubt implies a certain level of openness of mind; creationists are generally extremely closed-minded in that they willfully reject physical evidence supporting evolution merely because it does not jive with their religious dogmas. That is not doubt—it is stubbornness. It’s their right to do so, of course, but it certainly doesn’t help their case one little bit when they try to label their religious beliefs as “science.”

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