Speaking of the paper or plastic bag issue, happily I am bi-sacksual. And, yes, the same-sex marriage is a very fundamental issue of equality. But, so is the right to “life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness.” Where the government takes away any of these rights from some and distributes them to others which it chooses, it is “legal” robbery. But, the people have a responsibility to chose leaders and support leglislation that agrees with the Constitution (and with basic human needs) and, as Vaclav Havel said in his book, “The Art of The Impossible,” “The worst thing is that we live in a contaminated moral environment. We fell morally ill because we got used to saying something different from what we thought. We learned not to believe in anything, to ignore each other, to care only for outselves. Concepts such as love, friendship, compassion, humility, and forgiveness lost their depth and dimentions, and for many of us they came to represent only psychological peculiarities, or to resemble long-lost greetings from ancient times, a little ridicululous in the era of computers and spaceships. . . I am talking about all of us. We had all become used to the totalitarian system and accepted it as an unalterable fact of live, and thus we helped to perpetuate it. In other words, we are all—though naturally to different extents—responsible for the operation of totalitarian machinery. None of us is just its victim: we are all also its cocreators.” Mr. Havel became President of Czechoslovakia December 22, 1989. October 27 of that same year he had been arrested and did not know if he would be in prison for “for two days or for two years.”

I agree with the post. Let me give you one example.

For a long time, I was simply unconcerned about the issue of same-sex marriage. It was to me like a paper or plastic bag issue, something which I am sure concerns some people but I could not really care for.

I once saw this Church which had a prominent sign outside saying “We support same-sex marriage.” I spoke to the person and after some research by myself, I realised how fundamental an issue of equality it is. So interestingly enough, for me, the formulation of my positive views of same-sex marriage stems from the Church.

Religion, wish I had more time to play with you today—Instead I would say only that your attitude is one that suggests that you subscribe to the notion that all of the problems that people face emerge through their own actions or through laziness.

Actually, I believe that most problems do come because of peoples actions. However, I would qualify that by stating that their actions are poor because they are trained by our government to lack critical thinking and logic. I cannot realistically place blame upon those who have been the victim of mis-education.

Unfortunately, many people experience poverty, disability, lack of physical and emotional resources through no fault of their own. People can’t pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they don’t own any.

Very true. I would like to see us go back to times when people had the means to help those in need…rather than having their gain stolen by the government to use as it sees fit.

Me: You help them?

Specifically how?

As best you can. If the majority of the money I earn was not stolen before I saw it, I would be more than happy to give food, clothing, and shelter to those who need it. I do to a small extent anywise, but it is hard going when some months I can barely support my own family.

Me: You show them how to make ends meet?

Again, how?

By giving them work in return for food, shelter, and clothing. By showing them how to save money and get help. By showing them why being responsible with money is the only way they are likely to get out of their current state.

Me: You make them ask for help?

Huh?

If a person is unwilling to go out and seek help, then a person is not yet willing to help themselves. If they will not help themselves, then I see no reason to help them. Yes, this does not work for those who simply cannot request help for some reason, but such people generally have others who can and will do so for them.

If someone is not aware of others in need, they need to be made aware of it before they can help.

Me: You refuse help if they are capable of working but refuse to do so

Good idea. We work on that all the time. The problem is that a too restrictive system necessarily cuts many people truly in need. Better to give to someone who doesn’t deserve it than deny someone truly in need (Hey, I sounded a lot like a Christian there for aminute!)

We do not work at this. We rely on the government to do it. Instead, we would be better served by having local charities that help those in need and donating to them. Sitting back and letting the government provide to others (by taking from those who may not be able to afford it) is not the right approach.

Me: You do not just have the government rob the people and give handouts to people. That just promotes more of the same.

I don’t believe that the government hands out money that way, and I’d be interested in seeing your reference for your contention that handing out help to people in need promotes need. (That is what you meant, isn’t it?)

What is not to believe?
How is the taking of peoples earned money (under threat of fines, jail, and loss of property) not using force? Coercion is force.

Handing out help with no required attempt at responsibility promotes the reliance upon such help without any attempt to force people to wean themselves from such.

Teaching people that they do not neet to contribute to society to get food/clothing/shelter/etc is not going to fix anything. Welfare (as it is) is the taking by force from some to give it to others.

Me: No one I know would refuse food to the starving or clothing or shelter to those in need

Well, “many would rather die than ask [their friends and neighbors for it]for it.

But I still don’t see how your idea of a Christian nation takes care of the poorest of the poor—something Christians are charged to do.

Heavy cynicism alert:

Hardships and tribulations are sent to those favored by the Christian deity. As long as they live a devout life, there will be ample rewards in heaven.

I have been listening to all these quotes from the bible and realized that there is enough ambiguity in the scriptures to satisfy almost any position, (right down to slavery)so let me leave you with two quotes of my own. The first is from my book “God-101, what the church doesn’s want you to know” and that is;
*I’m thinking about all the people that tell me I am going to hell if I don’t conduct my life the way THEY want me to!
These are the Creationists, the Fundamentalists, the Islamic Extremists, people from Kansas, short people, etc. etc. etc.
Well! – The ultimate “get even” is that Judgement Day doesn’t apply unless you’re a BELIEVER!
If you believe that the Bible or the Koran is the “literal” word of God then there certainly will be a judgement day for you! That’s because you brought it on yourself!
Austa La Vista, Baby!
* The next is a statement that probably sums up things far more succintly that I ever could. It’s from Cheech and Chong album where Ashley Roachclip says; “You’re all fucked!” 

Religion, wish I had more time to play with you today—Instead I would say only that your attitude is one that suggests that you subscribe to the notion that all of the problems that people face emerge through their own actions or through laziness. Unfortunately, many people experience poverty, disability, lack of physical and emotional resources through no fault of their own. People can’t pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they don’t own any.

You help them?

Specifically how?

You show them how to make ends meet?

Again, how?

You make them ask for help?

Huh?

You refuse help if they are capable of working but refuse to do so

Good idea. We work on that all the time. The problem is that a too restrictive system necessarily cuts many people truly in need. Better to give to someone who doesn’t deserve it than deny someone truly in need (Hey, I sounded a lot like a Christian there for aminute!)

You do not just have the government rob the people and give handouts to people. That just promotes more of the same.

I don’t believe that the government hands out money that way, and I’d be interested in seeing your reference for your contention that handing out help to people in need promotes need. (That is what you meant, isn’t it?)

No one I know would refuse food to the starving or clothing or shelter to those in need

Well, “many would rather die than ask [their friends and neighbors for it]for it.” Perhaps we’d best let them die so they can “reduce the surplus population.” (Quotes from Dickens, by the way—Union workhouses—see Scrooge.)

…though many I know could not well afford to do either since the government steals a large chunk of their money

You’ll get no argument from me on that score.

It sounds like a great idea to teach men to be responsible for their children, but the reality is that many men do not behave responsibly. How would you fix that? You can’t complain about single mothers while simultaneously reducing access to sex education, abortion, morning after pills, day care and so on. Praying about it won’t work either, by the way.

I don’t happen to believe in big government—the less interference, the better. But I still don’t see how your idea of a Christian nation takes care of the poorest of the poor—something Christians are charged to do.

Andrew Brown bleats: It’s not about being good, but about being justified.  “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

From Daryl

One minor niggle

Damn…I forgot about that.  I wouldn’t even call that minor.

First, let me just say that I am surprised to be defending Daryl…very interesting…

Daryl,

Yes, there’s lots of great examples of how the government as helped people become more self-supporting by turning them out into the street or into the care of their overburdened families (think closure of mental health facilities back in the 60s and 70s).

Their families would not be overburdened if the government would stop using force to take the fruit of peoples labor and using it at its whim.

Why those schizophrenics, and mentally handicapped folk found a wonderful welcome on your local streetcorner. Do try to toss them a coin now and then—perhaps not. You’d only be keeping them from seeking gainful employment.

It should not be the role of the government to take by force and redistribute as it sees fit. It should be the role of communities to donate what they can to help those in need. In fact, it was the role of family and communities around a hundred years ago. Government is not some magical entity that can do things man cannot. It is but an organization of man.

As for the single (abandoned) mothers and their welfare children, I can only say, “are there no prisons? And the Union workhouses. Are they still in operation?

Interesting article, Les. 
America is certainly not a Christian nation.
Christians unfortunately do not always practice what they preach but the truth is that there was only one true Christian in the world-that is Jesus Christ.  The rest of us are sinners and so we look to his perfect life (and substitutionary death) for your righteousness.  It’s not about being good, but about being justified.  “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 2:16)

Well said, Daryll!

Moses, that’s pretty amazing that you can say with certainty that Jesus did not say what the Bible says He said. Don’t worry-you WILL get a chance to meet Him face to face on judgement day and He will set you straight on the whole thing.  (Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. Hebrews 9:27)  You believe that Daryl was brainwashed by “his religion”.  Is there not a chance that you have been brainwashed by the things you have read and want to believe?  And about being “reactionary to the extreme”-I think that’s more of the pot calling the kettle black than anything else. 

Frumpa, from Moses own mouth, he shows himself NOT to be a Christian so why do you like to hide behind the idea that there are 2 Christians who can’t agree?

I could say more, but it’s all “foolishness to those who are perishing” anyway.  (1 Corinthians 1:18)  Hopefully you are those who come into the light…
Blessings-Truly