[Editor’s Note: It was my intent to have a reply ready before posting this, but I’ve found myself putting it off due to a busy weekend so I’m going to go ahead and post it as is. I’ll address it properly in the comments as soon as I have the opportunity though I’m sure there are several regulars who will probably be more than capable of addressing it first.]
I’ve heard repeated here several times that Horus, an Egyptian god, is carbon copy of Jesus. The obvious implication by those that have made this statement is that Jesus is a copycat version of an earlier Egyptian deity. The purpose of this entry is to disembowel that proposition once and for all.
When I first heard that Horus was the inspiration for Jesus several years ago, I didn’t give it much credence because I couldn’t establish any source material for the claims. I still can’t, but the internet is as adept at allowing anybody and everybody to pass on misinformation.
Upon further research, I’ve concluded that this theory originated with Gerald Massey, an English poet, born 1828, died 1927. He published primarily poems, but had an interest in Egypt. He parlayed that interest in Egypt into several books and lectures in which he set forth the proposition that Horus was in essence the first Jesus, and Jesus was a cheap imitation. The primary basis for his writing is the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This is available on-line and you can easily look it up to read it yourself. Be forewarned that forced reading of this would be an extremely efficient form of torture.
It should be noted that Massey’s actual proposition was that Jesus was a copycat from more than just Horus. According to Massey, Jesus was a compilation of an innumerable number of Egyptian deities. There were over 2,000 deities who had every human and godlike characteristic one can think of, excepting Superman’s power to stop a speeding bullet.
Since Massey, there is a dearth of anybody with any credentials that has adopted a straight Horus=Jesus theory. There is a one individual that has adopted some of Massey’s thoughts and incorporated them into a book-The Christ Conspiracy. This appears to be the basis for the claims that I see. The author is Acharya S. Her website is http://www.truthbeknown.com I note that Richard Price, a noted Christ Myther, and one that I take much more seriously then Acharya, said the following:
“Those of use who uphold any version of the controversial Christ Myth theory find ourselves immediately the object not just of criticism, but even of ridicule. And it causes us chagrin to be lumped together with certain writers with whom we share the Christ Myth butt little else…..
His other criticism, like mine, is that she uses very dated sources (19th Century) who were in Price’s words “eccentrics, freethinkers, and theosophists.”
Les, I am using your post from 1/3/05 as an example of the claims because you carry more credibility than most. That said here are the claims and what I have found:
Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin.
Horus’s mother is Isis. Isis was married to Osiris. We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated. Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though. After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake. Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, humps him and here comes Horus. There is nothing virginal about that.
Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)
As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary. In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is. Seb is Osiris’s father. Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph. Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.
Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.
This is accurate.
Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds.
I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds. I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds. In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave. Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave.
Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels.
There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it. Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus. When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth. To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/carrier_luxor_inscription.htm
Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)
There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen. The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus. See the website referenced in Claim #5.
Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them.
There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus. so this is accurate.
Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.
There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12. In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.” That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple. Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others.
Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories. In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer. This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account. There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this. There is nothing.
Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples.
According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers. There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did. Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.
Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers. Horus is not present in this scene. For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural. In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy. Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus. Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene. They did not.
Claim #10-Both walked on water.
Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did. Massey does not maintain that Hours did. Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus. Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night. Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day.
As to Acharya, she as usual provides nothing to substantiate this.
Claim #11-Both performed miracles.
This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.
Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus.
The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus. It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life. There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story. Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead.
Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.
These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion. Yet, I can locate none of this. No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection. There was an incident in which Horus was torn to pieces and Iris requested the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was tossed into, which was done, but that’s it. I am at a loss to refute this because I can not find anything to support it.
Massey does compares a story about the Autumn Equinox related to Osiris, not Horus, as the symbolic crucifixion. There is no indication that Horus is involved in any way. There is no mention by Massey of any Sermon on the Mount. No mention or any actual crucifixion, no two thieves, no burial in a tomb. Massey does not maintain that anything of the sort occurred with Horus.
In short, of the claims outlined in this entry, I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murder plots against them.
Actually 15% of the US identified as Atheist at the census.
Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian- he was supposed to get the Jews back on the right track. The arguement is whether Christianity borrowed the ‘history’ from earlier religeons.
Is this argumanet still going on, will I get a response to a 3 year old post? Let’s find out…
Can I just start by saying to Nunyabiz that I find your attitude of “I am right and you are stupid” rather irritating. If you were saying things that were indeed correct, then why bother with the whole, you are a biased Christian bastard, etc, etc.
However, one thing that you said got me thinking and researching and it seems that I have an answer to the whole virgin thing. Astrologically, Isis is indeed connected with the sign of Virgo (http://www.lightofegypt.com/index.aspx?action=virgo)the same being true of Mary, mother of Jesus (may I add that there is not a single reliable source that can back up the whole Isis-Meri theory, and this is clearly just some desperate attempt to make something fit, when they didn’t need to go to such effort).
Another thing of note is the meaning of the word “virgin”. In ancient times, a virgin was someone who was not married, not someone who had yet to copulate:
“Virgo represents Mary, Mother of Jesus. The mother of Christ remains a Virgin in the minds of others even when Jesus is born. This does not mean an untouched woman, or intact. In ancient times this meant unmarried lady.” (http://allaboutvirgo.blogspot.com/2007/02/mythical-tales-of-virgo-virgo.html)
In other words, Isis could have sex with Osiris till kingdom come (and if I may be so crude, the conception of a god must surely require some special kind of come) and still be considered a virgin in the eyes of the contemporaries.
I would love to help you with the other similarities, but as I don’t expect any kind of response to this message, I won’t waste my time with that just yet.
Thanks for reading, please say that my effort has been worthwhile and that I get some kind of response even if it is a sharp “Go away you scoundrel”
Rob
Magno cum Gaudio
PS. I must also say that I failed to read all 33 pages of comments before posting, DOH! Therefore I am responding to topics that were current at the end of page one, just to let you know where I am
Dude, at this point I wouldn’t worry about it. I’m glad to see this is still active (and no doubt, Consi (the author) would be, too).
PPS Just to let you know where I am religiously, I see Jesus as a vessel through which all of the ancient mythologies combine into one easier to digest spiritual message. I find John to be the most reliable of the gospels and Paul to be the one who ripped Christianity away from this true meaning and turned it into something of his own creation.
For more on this train of thought please read Jonathan Black’s “The Secret History of the World”
Robert Lodge,
Do you consider E.A Budge an “unreliable source.” His dictionary clearly states that Meri is an ephitet for Isis and Heru and it means beloved.
Hieroglyphs.net clearly states meri as loved as well.
http://hieroglyphs.net/000501/cgi/lookup.pl?ty=tr&ch=m&cs=1
nunyabiz..all i can say is that it couldnt be better said
after all of the similarities that you have pointed out between the two, the only one that was arguable was them being born from virgins
so even if that wasnt true, its still not proving them to not be similar..
it turns out that Horus is one of many others that resemble jesus
theres (as already mentioned) mithra(of persia),and then theres attis(greek deity of phrygia), krishna(of india), dionysus(of greece), all having an abundant supply of similarities to jesus that cannot be denied/ignored..
i believe that most christians do not have a strong faith towards there religion..otherwise it wouldnt be so hard for them to listen and to accept and try to understand other peoples views on it..in fear of being wrong
i know that i dont have any sources or links proving that everything i just typed was fact..
but if we’re talking about religion..dont bitch to me about facts!
though i encourage everyone reading this to watch the zeitgeist movie.
the first 40 minutes is mainly about this specific topic..all the rest is about corrupt government
so if your christian faith is as strong as your thick skulls..then you shouldnt be worried about being wrong and just watch it..(since you have nothing to lose rite?)
and even if it would turn out that all of these are actually completely different and the bible is not a book of mere plagiarism..
i still have not found ONE good reason as to why religion is needed at all!
Anon:
Every change we face in life requires us to adapt it to a frame of reference (even if that means we disregard it as a result). I’d suggest that, extending on some recent (and interesting) research, we are prone to much more “imaginative” ways of making things make sense if
a) we can’t fit these things into an existing frame of reference
and/or
b) the result of some event seems disconnected from the event (arbitrary feedback).
This is a subject I’ve been thinking on a lot lately. Essentially, we tend to want to describe relationships between things. We will, then, tend to be the most imaginative in two cases:
a) we have a frame of reference that is over-simplistic to accommodate the thing (or we have no frame of reference at all)
or
b) the thing itself inclines us to radically redefine our frame of reference (say, trauma)
Through use (and abuse) religion fills the gap of imaginative thinking – which is why it’s promoted so well by trauma and the indoctrination of children. We are no less abusive teaching any other subject, in principle. The issue is a matter of measuring the consequences.
Well I would definitely have to say that I agree with you about this Horus issue. I’ve been researching the story of Horus and not only are there not a whole lot of similarities, but the original story of Horus did not at all reflect that Jesus Christ. In the original story of Horus he was the God of the sky who’s eyes were the moon and son. As I reasearched Horus further I found many different depictions of the story of Horus, one making him the husband of Isis as apposed to the son. It was not untill the very last story of Horus that he was said to be born of a virgin human and fathered by a human man. Keeping this in mind it not only makes it less likely that Jesus was a copy of Horus, but even possible that the last Horus was a copy of Jesus. Keep in mind that the story of the coming of the messiah was told starting early in the old testament. This would put the story historically dating back to far before 3000 B.C. (the assumed date of the son god Horus’s birth). However, when it comes to wether or not Isis was a virgin at the time Horus’s conception or not, of course not. Although I found nothing about Isis reconstructing the lost penis of her dead husband and “humping” him, she was obviously married to him while he was still alive and could have easily concieved Horus before Osiris was killed by Set. Not to mention, she was the Goddess of fertility. I imagine this would make her pretty damn fertile.
Jesus is not a “SUN GOD!” He’s the Son of God! Big difference. In Spanish “hijo” means son, and “sol” means sun. No simularities between the words. It’s only in English where we find a homonym between “sun” and “son.” However, they are two different words all together.
WHY THE HECK ARE YOU CALLING JESUS, “THE SUN OF GOD!”
He’s the Son of God. WAY different. Your rational is childish, Nunyabiz.
wow nunyabiz. You just managed to sum up just about all of the rediculous lies rolled into that film. I’ve been researching all of these other gods and that movie is full of enough crap to fill the sewers of a thousand cities.
If everybody wants the facts, look them up.
Zeitgeist, is NOT fact.
John P and holyservent2003,
You guys are blatantly misinterpreting Nunyabiz and misrepresenting the solar phenomenon of the Egyptians.
Zeitgeist is heavily an opinionated polemic and does contain exaggerations. This is true. However in that respect it’s no different than the bible. I wonder why it’s primarily moderate to conservative Christians who attack Zeitgeist, yet seems to find nothing wrong with the bible doing the same thing they attack Zeitgeist for? I am not accusing you of this. But I do find this interesting. My personal theory is psychological projection, but that’s another can of worms.
Nunyabiz post was done in 2005. That’s TWO YEARS before Zeitgeist even came out. For all you internet researchers, let’s clear this up now. Arguments exaggerated in Zeitgeist have been around for quite some time now. Nunyabiz was in no way summing up Zeitgeist. He couldn’t have. It didn’t exist yet. Zeitgeist doesn’t even mention Tammuz like Nunyabiz does. And acclaimed modern scholar Richard Carrier is on record for finding many similarities between Tammuz and Ishtar and the Jesus Story.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html (2003)
(Inanna is Isthar)
John P, the play on words “Sun of God” is just that, a play on words. It’s designed to get the readers attention. It has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Attempting to nitpick this demonstrates a huge lack of understanding of the issue, for those that do. The Sun was indeed regarded as the manifestation of the Egyptians forces of nTr (nTrw).
Holyservent2003, your idea that the final form of Horus may have been copied from Jesus is unfounded. In fact, the Gnostics (even the Catholics admit that Gnosticism is pre-Christian, and that’s saying a lot) gospels have represented Jesus as a holy bird (1), the same holy symbol for Horus as you probably know. Also, understanding the speech of birds was a power of heka, and in this respect it is very similar to the logos – which we all know is “the word.” In fact the Gnostic gospels bring Christianity and the Egyptian Mythology far, far closer. No wonder why they were attempted to be erased from history. Egyptian mythology was at best misunderstood by the Romans and at worst mocked from their ignorant perspectives.
(1) For easy internet confirmation, see: Metamoraphisis in Early Christianity, Istvan Czachesz.
Also, Holyservent2003, Isis indeed used a “model” phallus for the conception. (magical dildo). (2) Consigliere, like most conservatives, seem to think that Plutarch is somehow an authority on Egyptian mythology. (my feeling on this is because he was Greek, which they biasly credit most advancements too) The fact is Plutarch couldn’t read hieratic or hieroglyphics. He was a priest in a Hellenistic time and his interpretations demonstrate this. He was ignorant of more ancient Egyptian Mythology. His understanding of the myth comes from translations by Egyptians priests. Even the Egyptians at the time were not always clear on the origins of their myths as they saw “historical” (in the sense that we see it) record keeping as mundane and profane and was far more interested in their mythological time cycle. Finally he deliberated held back parts of the myth and there is reason to believe that he was an initiated of the Ancient Mystery Religions, which if true, he wouldn’t have came out with a more profound meaning of the myths anyway. Studying Plutarch alone is an armatures’ approach to Egyptian mythology at best. Consigliere’s interpretation of Horus is that of an amateur and no one reading that debate should have taken his surface level understandings seriously.
(2) See: Egyptian Mythology, Geraldine Pinch, p79. (Secondary source, ask for primary source)
Holyservent2003, your take on Isis virginity is absurd. There are two reasons why Isis is a “virgin.”
1. Virgin, in the sense that we understand virginity (absences of sexual intercourse) is an extrapolation of the true meaning behind the word virgin. In fact the Hebrew word used in the bible is “alma” which means adolescent girl, lass. The identical word in Egyptian (which is used in the title of a hymm to Isis) is hwt, it means the same thing. For more information see James Still. (3) The reason the associations began (assuming adolescent woman had not yet had sex) was primarily because of Isis herself. Isis was huge in the ancient world and her rebellious attitude to male authority began to get woman to withhold from having sex. First it was for empowerment purposes, and then later for moral purposes. Almah was thus translated as parthenos (virgin in our sense) because of this association. The mistranslation was based of an assumption due to the cultural atmosphere. Obviously, just because a girl is “of marrying age” does not me she necessarily has not had sex.
(3) See: The Virgin Birth http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/virgin_birth.html
2. All references to sexuality are not to be taken literally anyway. The events of Isis and Osiris are symbolic of cosmic events and even Plutarch didn’t believe the myths literally happened as described. Sexuality was primarily a symbol of fertility of some kind, like Osiris’s erection causing the Nile to flourish and Seth emitting fire from his phallus (destroying fertility). They are symbolic, not physical actions.
Isis and Osiris were not married in the way we think of “marriage” today. Although there is evidence for us to believe that there actually was a historical Isis and Osiris (who’s history would be sometime in prehistory) the myths that we come to know of them are nothing like this these possible historical figures. To suppose so would be like a future civilization analyzing our history and thinking that Santa Clause giving gifts every year to millions every Christmas via a reindeer powered sled is a reflection of Saint Nicholas. It’s asinine. They are two different entities. Most books on Egyptian mythology refer to Isis as Osiris’ sister-wife. There’s a reason they say “sister-wife” and it’s because it should not be regarded in the literal sense, but rather an expression. The Egyptian priests used brother/sister/wife/husband to demonstrate an intimate connection, not to define a literal as we think of it today. The Egyptians had an entire notion of time being based on their myths. The myths were never meant to be regard as, physical, literal events, and to treat it such as shows an utter lack of understanding.
Ok hermes, you’re right about one thing. I made the mistake of reading the wrong post in my last response. The post I was responding to was made by an anonymous poster. In this post all of his sources come directly from the zeitgeist movie.
I find it disturbing that you say zeitgeist is “exaggerating”. What zeitgeist says is not only exaggeration, but blatant lies. Isis’s name was never at any time isis-mary. It was just Isis. And even if you are correct about the ancients reffering to the word virgin as an atalesant girl, this still does not make her a virgin as the mother of jesus was. The virgin mary gave birth to jesus of nazareth without knowing a man touch.
They also use the possibility of horus being born on Dec. 25th as a similarity to Jesus. Anyone who knows the true story of the birth of jesus knows that he was not born on Dec. 25th. Not to mention the wrtings of horus say that the best guess of his birth, (assuming we’re talking about the story that he was actually born in) suggest his birth took place around October or November. These are just two of the blatant lies told in the zeitgeist film.
Judging from the way you right I would have to say that you are not someone that assumes they are right. That would you make you closer to someone like me. Someone who backs up their words with facts. And you said before that you are not directly atacking me or John P. I hope that you realize at well that I am not atacking you.
When it comes to the exaggerations within the bible, I will not argue. However, the bible does distinguish the difference between parables and facts. The zeitgeist film never attempts to do this. In the bible they let it be known that a story is being told to make a point. “A morale of the story”.
Acknowledged. Out of curiosity however, you did you read nunyabiz’s post in the beginning? He was, hands down, the best poster in this entire topic, imo. Yes he was arrogant but understandably to due to Consigliere narrow minded thinking.
The problem with your post in that you’re wrong. Mr means “beloved” in Egyptian and many of the gods had Mr as a title or/and epithet. You have been lied to (probably unintentionally) by Christian Apologetics who seeks to disassociate the simple truth or are simply too blinded by their faith to see it, Aset (Isis) is the prototype for Mythological Mary. The Egyptians did not record vowels in their language. The pronunciation of Mr will therefore vary by dialect, culture, and time. It’s been reconstructed to have been pounced “Meree/Maree” which is the exact word used in the etymological development of “Miriam” (Mary) which means bitter/rebellious, which comes from Aset. If you chose to argue with me on this, I will give you an entire dissertation on why you’re wrong, complete with references. This paragraph is only the beginning.
“Isis-Mary” translates to the Kemetic people as “Aset, the beloved” when you remove the corruption of meaning with foreigners such as the Greeks. All common knowledge about Egypt is jaded by the modern scholarships bias towards the Greeks. For example, the word “Egypt” is foreign to “Egypt.” They would have had no idea what you’re talking about if you called them Egyptian. They referred to their land as Kmt (Kemet). Aset is the closest you’re going to get to Isis actual name. Her name is not Isis. Isis is Greek.
You are not making a distinction between Mythological Jesus and Historical Jesus. There is a huge world of difference. (hence my example of Saint Nick versus Santa Clause) Historical Jesus was not born by the corrupted and common sense of the word virgin. The corrupted traditional Christian sense of virgin birth does not happen. Your belief in it is not relevant, as it simply doesn’t happen. It’s a lot smarter to realize that the meaning got corrupted, only then does it actually start to make sense. Mythological Jesus was born of a virgin (in the corrupted sense) and this mythological aspect of Jesus was created via the Mystery Religions, which has it’s origins in Egyptian mythology. (1)
(1) For an introduction of the Ancient Mystery Schools influence on the “virgin birth” see: http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/virgin.html
For some reason I have this feeling that my last paragraph will confuse you. (I’m seriously not trying to patronize you, as I believe you’re just misguided.) If so it’s very simple. Mythological Jesus is the impossible supernatural exaggerated Jesus of the bible. Historical Jesus is an elusive person that scholars debate on when, where, and if he existed. Christians are infamous for not distinguishing the important difference. Though it is very likely a historical Jesus existed, all the supernatural folklore of the bible are myths and created by Christian exaggerations of their own beliefs. Early Christian belief is a mix of Jewish Mysticism and a multicultural mix of misinterpreted older pagan spirituality which had its roots in Egypt.
I could go on about how Paul apparently isn’t even aware of Jesus’ alleged virgin birth and it isn’t until later that the “I know not a man” statement from Mary is made in Luke. Luke came much later than Paul. However, that would take a discussion that’s way too long to get into here, at least right now. For more on that see Dr Magee. (2) Regardless, Horus had many, many different birth accounts. For example, Horus had a birth where he was actually born from Osiris which required not even the slightest bit of sexuality whatsoever. (3) The reason this is so because – speaking in terms of the god incarnate – Horus is essentially Osiris in the profane world and Osiris is Horus in the duat. (heavens) Remember, Egyptians saw things in dualities. But it’s still going to take another dissertation for me to explain that as the intricacies of Horus/Osiris is very complicated. Do you need me to do this? If you’re researching (creditable) Egyptians sources, you should have realized this phenomenon by now. It is imperative that you understand that these events are not literal, tangible, physical events; they are symbolic messages (which were deified in an entire notion of cyclic time). They are stories, written as history, designed to illustrate meaning in the most profound way possible to the unperfected. (A) I swear, I don’t know how many Christians don’t seem to understand this very simple concept. Just because something is imaginary does not make it less. Don’t be so stuck on material based historicity. That is the problem with the western mind. It has no respect for the abstract mental phenomenons and is too absorbed in a materialist philosophy and take on history that ignore the metaphysics of it.
(A) Unperfected is the literal translation of “uninitiated” in reference to the ancient mystery schools.
(2) http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0290VirginBirth.php
(3) See: Tomb of Ramesses VI, Valley of Kings. (primary source) Quoted from: Jeremy Naydler, Temple of the Cosmos, p277. (secondary source)
This is more of you being presented a narrow minded scope of the issue through lies created primarily by ignorant and unbelievably biased Christians. First of all, the Going Forth of Wadjet festival (Wadjet = Eye of Horus) was indeed celebrated on December 25. We have various sources that demonstrate people acting out the birth of Horus on December 25 much like that of Jesus. (I will provide them by your request.) Second of all, according to older legends Horus was “born” in Khoiak. Now recall that the Egyptians had three calendar systems that ran together simultaneously as opposed to our use of one calendar to quantify time information and Khoiak was the end of the year in the Sothic calendar as it marked the rise (perceivably) of Sirius, the Dog Star. Depending on a lot of variables, Khoiak translates roughly to around October/November which would be the end of the year in one concept of time.
Now, look at this idiot’s video. (5) He goes on trying to disprove Zeitgeist by demonstrating the solar alignment of the three brightest starts in Orion Belt. Yet what he, and most “internet gurus” that try to tackle the task fails to realize is that, what’s important are not exact dates, but rather the influence of astrological phenomenon on the ancients minds, which no doubt exists. These dates shouldn’t be taken as literal dates but approximations. There are all sorts of errors that happen when you attempt to compare and contrast calendar systems and that margin of error increase more and more across longer and longer spans of time and diversity of systems. The idea of a savior being born by the Dog Star is very, very ancient. By 3100BC (the start of the “short” chronology of Egypt) the Egyptians had already acquired enough data to use the Sothic Calendar. This is big deal, because they are on record for having acknowledged the coincidence of the New Year via two calendar systems to happen on the same date. (the civil calendar vs the sothic one). This only happens every 1400 odd years. This means by 3100BC, they had already been tracking the stars for thousands of years and the rise of Sirius marks the birth of the new sun (year). The only reason you don’t hear more about this calendar is because there is (to my knowledge anyway) no serving artifacts of it so most of it is reversed engineered. However, it is referenced in physical evidence of the Egyptians.
(5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtmO36tmuT0
Finally, because of the Hellenization of Egypt at the time, the tradition of acknowledging Horus’s birth at the end of the year (Khoiak) was probably just carried over into the end of the year in a more Julian-like calendar system. Although my exact details on this is lacking, it’s something I will began researching exhaustively soon. As for Jesus being December 25, the fact that the bible doesn’t record Jesus birth date as December 25 is irrelevant. Millions of people use this day to acknowledge the birth of Jesus, as they did with Horus. It ironically brings the parallel closer. Both were never recorded as being born Dec 25, yet millions used this day to observe the birth of a savior. (Am I really going to have to get into the savior argument with you? It will be long, sense all shorts of lies on this issue on the internet) You really need to stop supposing that the these myths are somehow relevant to historical detail of actual, tangible, living Jesus, Horus, etc. Myths and Gods are deified concepts that were at one point of time based in a historical time line, but now only survive as non factual abstractions. By 3100BC the Egyptians realized this, (every king was a manifestation of a Horus, after any historical Horus was long, long gone.) it’s time for you to do the same.
You’re right, I don’t. I personally think you’re in an environment that nurtures a biased Christian perspective and therefore your mind defaults to this perspective. It leads you to the axiom of thinking that the burden of proof lays on those that oppose your natural perspective, which simply isn’t always the case. And by biased I don’t mean “evil” bias like the big bad boogie-man that’s actively seeks to suppress all information that opposes his beliefs. I mean biased in the sense that I believe you’re coming from a perspective that’s used to seeing things in a more western traditional point of view rather than really taking the time to understand history and religion in a non-western perspective. For example, the relationship between Egypt and Greece was that of student to teacher, with Egypt being the teachers and the Greeks being the students. The vary idea of that is absolutely alien to most westerners as they’ve been taught that the Greeks were the pioneers and champions of logic, which is at best dubious and worst outright racists. Even the Greeks acknowledged there debts to Egypt.
Then why do you think Jesus was literally born of a ‘virgin’ in the form of an absence of sexual union? You know, deep down inside, that this isn’t true…don’t you? You don’t have to admit to me or this forum. But take it from a person that’s been through hell in life, it will help your spirit in the long wrong to not lie to yourself.
Why are people on record from dying by poison thinking that god will immune them? (Mark 16:18)
Why does my grandfather have a book that was published around 80 years ago that literally represents Adam as the first man on earth 6000 years ago when in all actuality the woman came first and humans are at least 100,000 years old and probably far older?
Why are there still people within the last 20 years still arguing that the earth is flat and trying to scientifically test this hypothesis? (Charles K. Johnson)
If the bible made “fact” and “metaphor” clear, these things and many, many more, wouldn’t be the case.
Finally, how do you state fact about imaginary characters?
Think about it.
Well first of all none of what I have told you is based off of what I was told in a church, or any other scenario in which I recieved information from another person. I’m not the type to believe what i’m told. The fact that Jesus and Horus were not born on Dec. 25th, is a matter of histroical dating. This is all research that I’ve done myself based off of factual documentation. Assuming that neither Jesus or Horus were ever born, simply tracing back their life lines would lead back to the area of time that they were born.
Now this does not of course reflect an exact date, but it comes pretty close.
Now the information that I have stated has (if possible) came from the direct translation of the egyption hyroglyphics themselves. The fact that the translation could very easily be mistranslated due to the launguage styles of western civilization is both noted and accepted. This has also been a major issue with the modern versions of the bible in comparison to its original writings.
This will unfortunately be a factor that I have no choice but to conceed to. However, the fact that the zeitgeist film is telling lies, is unmistakable. Now I’m not saying that the movie lies about everything. There were many things in the film that I had already known as fact before ever watching it. The problem is that they are taking severe lies, and mixing them with fact. The whole purpose of this is to confuse people that would otherwise not know better, or just be too lazy to find out.
Hermes, Thank you for that wonderful walk through the development of religions in the Western world. And, yes, everyone suffers from their own world view, based on culture and language. Thank God, or Horus, or whoever, we still have a separation of Church and State in this country. Now try to make some sense out of Eastern religions. Try e-Karma, for instance.
I really doubt your ability to fully understand the scope of the issue you’re dealing with. I’m pretty quite sure of it.
You seem to be trying to confirm a date in a text. That axiom of yours in of it’s self is at best misguided and at worst ridiculous and will just lead you into an insane amount of tunnel vision, like Consigliere. There are various fatal problems with your approach to this situation with the most obvious being that the Kemetic people themselves wasn’t concerned with dating like you are. Their records aren’t going to confirm a precise historical date. There are several dates attributed to Horus (in primary sources) all during Khoiak. This isn’t because it actually happened. It’s because of the rising of Sirius, not a date an actual tangible thing. Horus’ birth is metaphysically spiritual, not an historical event.
You are just going to suffer from an endless mass of confusion if you think for a second your going to find or reason the “real date” since the Egyptian Priest themselves didn’t care about “historical” dates like you are. Their gods was conceived of as existing in an entirely separate cyclic time line of Eternal Return. Each and every Pharaoh IS Horus, the god, incarnate on Earth.
You need to rework your entire conceptualization of time before you attempt to understand the Egyptians. Mantheo was the first Egyptian to focus on recording “history” in the sense that we understand a “historical record” and he comes very late in Egyptian history. Prior to that the only records the Egyptians were concerned about was the abstraction of pulling out there deified concepts (gods) out of linear time and into a cyclic one.
What you need to do before you try and “verify fact” with the Egyptians is get an accurate understanding of their culture. You are not going to understand their culture with your mindset nor your approach. It doesn’t matter how much “fact” you try and get from Egyptian sources, if you don’t know how to interpret the data the way the Egyptians would have saw it, your “facts” will just be a bunch of garbage-in-garbage-out processing of nonsense information.
If you are into direct translations, then why don’t you realize that Aset was referred to as Meri in primary? Budge specifically translates this as does other modern Egyptologists such as Ahmed Osman. (who is an Naitive Egyptian) You say Zeitgeist is lying when they say “Isis-Mary,” yet you blatantly ignore this. Why do you do this? This leads me to question your intent and integrity and if anything makes you the liar/deceiver, not Zeitgeist.
As far as my comment on nurture goes, I didn’t mean you get your information directly from a Church. I meant I believe the full spectrum of your perspective is coming from a Western/Christian based type of perspective. If I was concerned with were you, specifically, were getting info, I would have said so.
I’m going to level with you. I think the “lies” you speak of is due to your own misunderstanding of the film. Zeitgeist exaggerates, no argument there. But if you are like 90% of the people I seen attack Zestiest, the lies you speak of is just coming from your own misinterpretation of the film. (referring to part 1 only) I respect the fact that you seem to be making an honest effort to understand the issue. However you need to realize that there is nothing wrong with basing your work off the work of others as long as you’re using good sources and acknowledge them for their efforts as well as yours. The phrase “no need to re-invent the wheel” has lasted this long for a reason. Our entire society does it. You wouldn’t be typing in this thread if people didn’t do it. It’s natural.
Learn to understand the Egyptian culture before you try to interpret primary sources. That’s not a command, that’s my advice to you.
Another example of time and birth would be many Asian cultures where you are one year old when born and become two years old on New Year’s Day. Try to find out someone’s exact date of birth there.
I fully understand the fact that the birth of horus was not historical. If I believed that horus was a god and was actually born then I would not bother trying to argue wether he’s similar to jesus or not. It wouldn’t matter to me. However, you are incorrect about one thing, there were approximate dates of horus’s birth given, as there were approximate dates of jesus’s given, none of them being dec. 25th. When it comes to me saying that the information I have given is being based off of factual documentation, it is. Let me first say that as a man I feel absolutely no need to lie. If I can be proven wrong I will openly admit it, hints why I bother researching these facts in the first place.
Just to be clear, I know you weren’t calling me a liar, I just want you to know that I’m not.
Getting back to what I was saying before, as I thought I made clear in my last comment, I understand how translation can be very affected through the difference in western dialects as apposed to egyptian or many other dialects for that matter. You see, I researched english translations of the hyroglyphics written about the story of horus, and every time, his mother’s name was written only as Isis. Again, I admit this could be as simple as a mistranslation due to western understanding.
I will take your advice and try to open my understanding of ancient egyptian culture and compare it to my current research. I have very much enjoyed our conversation and hope to have more in the future.
That being said, my advice to you is to open up your mind to the realm of possibility that there are sometimes reasons to believe or understand things that exists beyond what is written in our history, and what our logical frames of mind may tell us.
Side note for leguru: I give you props for the Lao Tzu quote. I am a fan of his quotes.
Thank you, holyservant. I like Stephen Mitchel’s translation, especially. It captures the essence and poetry very well.
Holyservent I already said that there are dates givens for Horus birth and that they are all (that I know anyway) in Khoiak. I said that people have acknowledged the “birth” of Horus on Dec 25, like Jesus. We have various writers on record confirming this, and it was happening during the time where Christianity began assimilating the Egyptian religion in Alexdandria. You can not elevate Egyptian text over cultural and oral traditions. In the Egyptian culture they are on the same playing field, you have to treat them like equals.
It baffles me why you’re stuck on a preposed offical date for an entirely non-physical entity that exist within people’s minds. The date could be whatever the priest wanted it to be. It is imaginary. (I don’t mean this in degrading sense, but rather an empowering one) There is no “offical” orthodox date as the Egyptians where not orthodox. They saw absolutely nothing wrong with having what a westerner would see as “conflicting information” about things like dates because they saw meticulous detail (in regards to spirituality) like that as irrelevant and even profane (with some priest). I’m writing this not only to you, but to anybody who is reading this thread who as entirely misunderstood the Egyptians.
And i’m not calling you a liar, directly. I honestly don’t believe your intent is to deceive. However i’m applying the same Judgement you pased on Zeitgiest to yourself to get you to see how fallacious your false judgment is. You call Zeitgiest a liar and put intent in it’s mouth which you said was to:
And you bring up the Isis-Mary thing as an example, which you were wrong about trust me, I can give you the primary source for it. You did it out of not knowing any better. You are guilty of the very thing that you attacked Zeigiest for.
Therefore I was pointing out your baseless attack agaist the movie Zeitgiest as I’ve seen countless of people who’s mentality are much like yours. They think they’re going to get some “fact” about the Egyptians (or anybody else for that matter) and that when they get that “fact” they are going to compare it against Zeitgiest and if it doesn’t match then Zeitgiest is “lying.” Then they jump to these conclusions all while being entirely ignorant of any possible illusions of the data they are comparing which comes from a lack of a profound understanding.
This is like me going to the store and buying a new hard drive that says 500GB of memory on the cover and then accusing the store of being “lied to” when I install the hard drive my comptuer tells me there is only 465GB of total memory. If I was ignorant about memory quantification, it would seem like I was lied too. Obviously that isn’t the case.
As far as your advice to me, trust me, If I didn’t realize this arleady, I wouldn’t know as much as I do on the subject matter. For example, research my user name, Hermes Mercurius Trismegistus. You will find a great deals of esoteric information regarding Hermes.
*I meant to say I believe your intent isn’t to deceive. Not is. My bad.
I’m not “stuck” on the date. The whole purpose of me saying about the supposed birth date of Dec. 25th, as I have said already a few times if i’m not mistaken, is that this date is irrelevant.
Now first you said that I you do not believe my intent is to decieve, but then you corrected yourself saying that you do not believe my intent isn’t to decieve, This would mean you believe I am lying. Is this accurate?
No holyservent, that’s me getting you to see the blatant double standard in your logic. What I did was impose the very logic you imposed on Zeitgeist to get you to see the other side of the equation. You accused Zeitgeist of lying and suppose they did it deliberately when 1) in regards to Aset they didn’t lie and 2) they sure as hell don’t intent to confuse and deceive people.
So therefore I placed you in the same shoes as you did Zeitgeist by questioning your honesty when about Aset. I knew lying wasn’t your intent, but that doesn’t change the fact that your post may have vary well deceived the ignorant. (as you attacked Zeitgeist for) The point was to try and get you to realize that, although they are idealistic and exaggerate, they are not trying to deceive people.
You need to clarify something.
…
What are you saying? This in no way sounds like your realize how a precise date is way beyond the point. Dec 25 is the figurative representation of astrological phenomenon (hence the celebrations which represents a spiritual birth.
For anyone wondering, I just realized a mistake I made with about the Egyptian word for “virgin.” It is hwnt, not hwt.
Jesus is not a Carbon Copy of Horus!
jesus was patched together from several different deities. those other deities had things in common with horus… what’s to say that horus was the first anyway? look at it from a bigger perspective than Horus/Jesus. yeah, i skipped the comments. i showed a clip of it to my catholic mother… she agreed with parts of it, albeit the vague parts. but then again… what is religion but not a collection of vague stories?
much love,
Z
Read Tom Harpur, Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834), Gerald Massey (1828-1907) and Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963). Then tell me about this…
I do clearly realize that the date of dec. 25 th is completely irrelevent. How about we finally just get past that stupid date. It was one example of many. And let me make a very broad “correction”. According to MY FINDIINGS the information given in that film about not only Horus, but a few of the other gods as well, is false. I have not completed the research yet so I can not comment about the other ones yet.
I have taken your advice and begun my studies of the egyptian culture. If I am wrong, I will openly admit it. But as of right now, the translations that I have gotten from the supposed professionals, says that zeitgeist is lying.
Having not read the English translations of the Bible or the Book of the Dead, and since I’m lazy and only know English, I have no clue as to what the originals say. I dare say all I know of religion is hearsay. That is all I know is what others have interpreted from these documents.
I do not believe is such matters. They have never made any sense to me. The only thing that has ever made sense to me is when these stories are revealed to be astronomical parables to help simple-minded folk remember when to plant and harvest their crops, etc.
That being said, in reading this thread Hermes Mercurius Trismegistus seems to present the most sane and rational mindset in regards to this whole subject matter. He cites reference material, is thoughtful and tries to understand other people’s point of view, and remains calm when he respectfully disagrees with those viewpoints.
A tip of the hat to you Hermes Mercurius Trismegistus (or whatever your real name is), if only others could raise themselves up to your level of discourse.
)
Your explanations of this issue make the most sense to my world view.
Okay holyservent we can drop the date but let’s go on record for acknowledging that the Dec 25 is not a “lie.”
If you don’t mind me asking, what translations are you reading? I might be able to explain why Zeitgeist made the incredible leaps that it did from the texts that you are reading. (the movie focuses on symbolisms of the myths, and not what these myths “factually” states) This isn’t to say that the film is without error, but it really shouldn’t be regarded as a scholastic documentary to begin with. The author simply put his thoughts together and had no idea that the movie was going to get so popular.
And Logan Quinn, your input is much appreciated. Thank you sir.
This is how I view the film, I think the author paints an interesting meta-picture to explain the similarities between the various myths and the procession of them.
I am especially intrigued by the Zodiac Ages and how we’re about to enter the Age of Aquarius. Will a new “myth” pop up to replace the Christianity one?
Does Aquarius the Water Bearer bear a bucket of drinking water? Or is it a bucket of mop water to clean up the world? Does he offer hope and unity, or a great flood of despair? (the glaciers are melting and the threat of global flooding is very much on the minds of scientists)
Today the news announced we are officially in a recession, if the economy collapses as some think is inevitable, people will be hard pressed being able to afford keeping a roof over their head and their bellies full, many if not most may abandon using the internet or watching TV. Most people are pretty savage, primitive, and superstitious in their world view. I suspect there will roaming hoards of rioters sweeping across the land (I cite the recent Walmart riot as proof of this). and America may very well revert into a third world country.
I wonder if anyone out there (a savior perhaps?) has a plan to bring humanity through such disasters?
If nothing else, seems to be good material on which to base a novel or movie on.
My pleasure.
Even if Horus wasn’t born of a virgin, there are still lots of other aspects of that god that implies to jeebus prist. So the 4 musketeers knew that if they copies Horus as is, we will eventually figure it out so they changed few headlines and voila, you have a new god for the next few thousand years to come.
What shocks me is that Consigliere is admiting that Horus is just a myth while jesus isn’t.
But, Horus is THEIR myth and Jesus is MY myth. That makes a BIG difference.
Alrighty then. I just spent my entire day, and I mean the ENTIRE day reading this entire thread. (okay, I will admit I skipped over various flame wars and started to ignore various posters who felt the need to nick-pick things to death, but I scrolled through them all.)
First, it is my opinion that the entire premise behind this thread was/is a total straw man argument, and that there is no way anyone would be able to step up and prove that Jesus = Horus. Obviously since they were allegedly born 3000 years apart, they are are not the same figures.
Obviously I know next to nothing about either of these religions, as I stated in a previous post here a few days ago.
Hermes I for one would love it if you could find the time to cite the resources you offered in your posts (yes, all of them).
As a favor to all who come after me I offer a list of comments I found of interest or merit throughout this thread, in chronological order they are:
Pg 2 Spocko posted on 1/12/2005 at 9:54pm
Pg 17 Acharya S Posted on 11/06/2007 at 05:35 PM
Pg 23 Demotee posted on 3/13/2008 at 7:04 AM
Pg 27 Spocko posted on 6/21/2008 at 10:01 AM
Pg 32 Rebecca Savatio posted on 10/9/2008 at 1:02 PM
Pg 33 Robert Lodge posted on 10/21/2008 at 3:10 PM
Pg 33 Hermes posted on 10/28/2008 at 8:29 PM
Pg 34 And then there are a couple more posts by Hermes on this page.
(Most of these links will require some scrolling to get to the posts)
The rest I consider to pretty much be useless flame warring or at best futile postulating/debating.
Oh, I think I can tick another event off my savior list, I spent the last 12+ hour suffering through this thread so you won’t have to.
Blessed be me. (If you don’t get this joke, http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/member/2797/” target=“new”>check my profile.)
My two cents on the Zeitgeist movie is that people forget the guy is telling a story from his viewpoint, and is trying to make sense out of the similarities he sees in all these different religions. I think he made it clear that not all of the various Sun-gods shared everything in common (but perhaps people were having a hissy-fit over some detail that they missed that part?).
I note that there were a few post against anything astrologically speaking, that astrology is bunk. But that doesn’t mean the ancients didn’t use the stars, sun and moon to track time and plan their lives around. So I think that it is possible that these myths are based on “Astronomical” events and not “Astrology” as some like to confuse the two words as being the same thing. Astrology is a by-product of the constellations, not the other way around as the they were around long before Astrology. So I think it is possible he’s onto something about the similarities and their relationship to the movement of the heavens.
Claim #1-Late September could be considered coming out of Virgo and might be considered a possible birth being 9 months after the new year? This is also the time of year when the harvest comes full.
Claim #2-I think the naming conventions were addressed.
Claim #3-not contested, but I think a sun-god would be consider royalty
Claim #4-#6-Sirus the dog star, 3 stars in Orion’s belt?
Claim #7-Winter was looming in the foreseeable future?
Claim#8-I am clueless as to what this might represent?
Claim #9-There are twelve zodiac constellations that the sun moves throughout the year?
Claim #10-The sun at sunset appears to walk across water before it sinks below the horizon?
Claim #11-Well, the sun warms us, brings light to the day, feeds us, that’s pretty miraculous.
Claim #12 The days getting longer after Winter Solstice, the sun getting higher in the sky.
Claim #13-The Winter Solstice
Oh, and don’t bother getting all in a tissy over this little post of mine. I’m not going to get pulled into some meaningless debate over nick picking details. I have nothing invested in this subject, I just think its an interesting theory. Religion has never made sense to me and this is the closest it has ever to meaning anything to me.
Hey Les, I think if you can stop comments to this thread, it would be funny to stop them at 999.
Logan, first let me express how impressed you are that you took the time to read the entire thread or at least most of it. It’s a task I only attempt every so many months or so. This is definitely one of those threads I’ll probably close down before too much longer as it’s huge, but it’s also one of the top 10 entries that people come to SEB for.
Oh, and that’s a damned impressive avatar you’ve got there.
Here’s the larger version, although it was always meant to be reduced to an icon, so it’s a little fuzzy.
Well that is most definitely interesting Hermes. I was unaware that this films was based on personal opinion and theory. If you are correct and it was made that way then it should not have been considered or referenced so factually. However, if it was just theory and opinion, then I will not hold it at such high standards.
I feel it is necessary for me, as a believer of God, and a follower of christ, to show people that this film can not be taken so literally. I have personally seen people close to me lose their faith over this film, or use it as a good reason not to obtain faith. This makes it very personal to me.
When it comes to the research that I am doing, after I am finished I will be glad to submit all this information to you, and I would like to hear you’r input.
I read a recent comment about people were mindlessly bickering about this subject. I apologize if I have left anyone with this impression. I never meant to offend anyone at anytime. When it comes to my direct conversation with Hermes. I certainly do not see it as bickering, or even arguing at all for that matter. Hermes is clearly an aducated person, and I have enjoyed his input.
Hermes,
In response to:
“I could go on about how Paul apparently isn’t even aware of Jesus’ alleged virgin birth and it isn’t until later that the “I know not a man” statement from Mary is made in Luke”
Actually, Luke was one of Paul’s good companions and traveled extensively with him (or else we wouldn’t have most of Acts). I find it hard to believe that the two didn’t share the same beliefs.
I know you’re a well educated person, which makes me wonder why your “dissertation” contains false information. Perhaps you might want to read the New Testament before you begin your assaults. I think it would be a good idea.
“When you put the pictures side by side it is pretty stunning. There are in fact many many paintings and sculptures of much more ancient Gods which can be viewed which look almost identical to paintings and sculptures of Jesus, Mary, the apostles, etc.”
That’s true. The only problem is that the Bible never mentions anything about halos, so I really don’t understand why artists like to paint them so much. I think it would be wise not to draw conclusions based on pictures rather than the text, which didn’t come with pictures originally.
Interesting tangent of thought, this whole art issue.
Art of course predates Jesus, especially Egyptian, we see these various Egyptian gods depicted all over the place.
I would bet that more people knew how to draw a picture in the time of Jesus than they knew how to read and write. One would think that someone drew a picture of Jesus while he was alive, especially if he were such an important person. Yet the earliest date I see in a google search is 100-200 A.D. (and of course numerous claims of which image is the earliest.)
If nothing else, one would think his Apostles would have had an image of him as part of their story telling. As a picture tells a thousand words, and people will believe what they see more than what they hear. (I mean, people bought Gen. Powell’s crude little animations as proof of WMD’s in Iraq.) I wonder though, are there any physical descriptions of Jesus? Height? Weight? Eye or hair color? How about any birthmarks or scars? Did he have long straight, curly locks, or did he have a nice big afro? Maybe he wore dreadlocks? Maybe he was bald? Does the bible say?
Well, since He was God, nobody really knows what He looked like. And there was that thing about “graven images . . .”
And, Helen, apparently your only source is the Bible to prove a story in the Bible. Pity.
Unfortunately my time is limited, however I can recommend some good readings if you wish to understand Egypt better.
Isis in the Ancient World, Dr. Reginal Witt.
Dr. Witt is especially good at demonstrating Isis effect on culture in the Egyptian-Greco-Roman times. His work contains both archeological findings and clear, honest reasoning. It may be a bit much for a beginner but is clearly scholastic material that is not popularized in modern scholar ship.
Temple of the Cosmos, Jeremy Naydler.
Naydler approach to Egyptians is clearly philosophical however he is an author of worthy praise. He is a lecturer at many colleges of which the most notable is Oxford. Temple of the Cosmos is a very good departure from typical books on Egypt as his writing style stresses that you see the world in the same eyes as an Egyptian would have. Do not be fooled by his philosophical take, he supports his perspectives with many illustrations of primary sources in temples that the normal person will likely never have access too.
Egypt Revisited, Ivan Van Sertima.(editor)
This is an Afro-Centric collection of essays and scholastic writings concerning Egypt. This book is invaluable to those who wish to see the scholastic opinions of those not orientating from a traditional western perspective. The native words of the Egyptians are used quire frequently along with transliterations of primary sources. All ranges are covered here, from Egyptian culture, philosophy, technology, and history, to a modern representation of it and evaluation of its fairness. Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop, is a distinguished author in this collection.
Awakening Osiris, Normandi Ellis
Ellis has done a unique translation of the Book of Coming Forth by Day. (closer to what the Egyptians actually called “the book of the dead” – which would be “utterance of the emergence by day”) Ellis has, in my opinion, done a great job at marking our “poetic” culture meet the “poetic” culture of the Egyptians. While you should not use this material as scholastic, Ellis style is very good at getting the same emotional responds out of the reader that the Egyptians more than likely would have got out of their text. More literal (scholastic) translations can be utterly confusing if you don’t understand certain things, like the significance of the delta marshes, crocodiles, and the ka.
I hope that helps.
I would like your input when you’re done. I was thinking of writing a non-scholastic book on the matter. But I can foresee the attacks I’m likely to get and I’m not entirely sure if I want to subject myself to it. I can understand your apprehension to what you seen the movie do to ones that are close to you. However, you should also note that while the movie itself is opinionated and theoretical; it is not necessarily an entirely invalid assertion. If you wish to learn more about the mode of thinking that Zeitgeist has taken, I suggestion you read on topics in Comparative Religion and Theosophy. Authors such as G. R. S. Mead, Gerald Massey, Helena Blavatsky and Alvin Boyd Kuhn are the ones who give more scholastic ideologies that are covered in Zeitgeist. While the authors are all dated, many were unrecognized or dismissed for largely the wrong reasons. Some modern scholars have revived there points of view with limited acceptance. The issue with these authors is that because they rely heavily on “soft sciences” such as psychological speculation and linguistic analysis, one can easily just deny their perspectives (regardless of how plausible it is) and claim “refuted.” A major running theme in there studies is the use of archetypes and the symbolic portrayal of them in religion. Thus, what matters is not what the myth “factually” says, but rather what stimuli the archetype invokes in the conscious, subconscious, and unconscious mind. Keep in mind that the notions of archetypes and the subconscious was alien to western scholarship until the likes of Freud and Jung. All the former authors were pre Freud (in a sense that we was by no means “established” in academia nor was Jung). To use notions of archetypes and the subconscious (regardless of what term they gave it) was considered ridiculous in scholarship. Now, cognitive research proves quite the contrary.
Hellen, NT argument is definitely something I wanted to avoid in this thread as well all know that that does to topics on the internet. My primary reason for posting was to give better insight to the Egyptian culture and Mythology which I feel is misunderstood by many. That said, I sense that you’re skeptical to the validly of what I’ve said in my post because of the point you bring up about the NT. If this is the case then I encourage you to check the sources I references as I feel I’ve done a good job at referencing more questionable points I make.
I’ve read a good deal of this thread, it was useful and illuminating on many levels. Not just the discussion itself, but also how we choose to have these type of dialogs.
For me, the opening premise of Horus=Jesus is at best misleading. What is interesting is more that Jesus story has any points of narrative similarity with multiple prior ‘stories’. A one for one or direct derivation or overlap is not required for me, though it does drive things home.
Why would the ‘story’ of the mere presence of nothing less then God, Gods Son, a deity here on earth be in any sense all that common with prior myths? Yet here it is, a story with elements that are the same or resonate with prior myths and legends from many cultures and a wide range of ‘earlier’ religious beliefs.
I’m not a Christian, nor am I an atheist. I see either extreme as needing to either defend the Jesus story as supremely unique, special amongst all stories of man, true. And the atheist to destroy any divinity, and perhaps even the existence of the man himself. Its all good, it’s what we humans do and both are right, neither is totally false.
For me I walk with the idea that Jesus was a man, likely a ‘guru’ of sorts, perhaps even jew of enlightened consciousness, or divinely inspired. But much more then that becomes for me a bit of myth building, marketing, and I suspect a great deal of manipulation to match the desires of man and organizations.
For me this thread has done little or nothing to help the Jesus is special case, it is clearer then ever before that the Jesus story is based on, derived from, influenced by previous myths and memes from at least Egyptian, Roman and Greek sources and likely even earlier Mesopotamian sources.
Its too bad that so many Christians have to hold so tight to the myths and magic and dogma of the church. We can have 1B people throwing out their core beliefs, but they certainly need to be updated.
Just for clarification, Mesopotamia is not an ‘earlier’ civilization than Egypt. The dates you read as the “start” of Egyptian civilization beginning 3100BC in encyclopedias and such is not the start of their civilization nor is it entirely canon. The 3000-3100BC date is actually an adjustment made by modern scholars based on syncing Egypt history with Mesopotamia. It is known as the “short” chronology and it’s not the dating attested to by both Eusebius and Manetheo who had contact with the Egyptians before theie culture got assimilated by Arabs. (Modern Egyptians) Eusebius gave a dating scheme of 4,780 years and Manetho gave 5,524 years. Of the two Budge is on record of thinking Manetho was far more accurate than Eusebius. Keep in mind; this is simply speaking on the short chronology. The long chronology by data of Manetho is attested at 17,000BC circa.
Also, the short chronology only marks the unification of upper and lower Egypt. By the time this happened, gods such as Isis, Osiris, and Horus were well established already. Herodotus is on record for being told that the Egyptian civilization goes back “8000 some years,” and that was 2000 years ago. The reason most don’t know these things because most Egyptologist will say something along the lines of “obscure origins” when getting into data this old as a means to project their authority as these dates are well into prehistory and should not be interpreted as “official.” No doubt, however, that the Egyptian civilization goes back far more than the average person’s awareness. Considering that civilization its self came from Africa, it’s a mistake to assume that the Egyptian culture is based on Mesopotamia in any fashion. Scholars have traced traditions and linguistics back to Africa (specially, to the Anu, better known as “Ethiopians” in the west”) where the Egyptian culture, as well as civilization began. This isn’t to say that ideas where never barrowed, but even scholars make the mistake of presupposing Mesopotamia over Egypt.
Even though I do believe that Jesus Christ was a myth just like many other God/Men of the ancient world, I have to say that the comparisons between Jesus and Horus (of Osiris and Isis) are biased and inaccurate, this is not proof that Jesus didn’t exist, although there is plenty of proof around, historical proof is somewhat unreliable, I think it is best to look to science to disprove the possibility of any such occurrences.
Sorry for the poor grammar
Dave M
(excuse my language I’m from switzerland)
It’s funny to see what kind of People are interestet in this matters. Just a few points:
1. most of this sites all of you marked, are just not historical at all. Just when a book is written about something, it doesn’t meen, that’s the truth then.
2. The real question is: “If these Horus-things ar the truth, then how got it the people, that wrote the letters and Evangeliums?” I studied religion-sience for some semesters, and i know, that the texts are full of false language, differences between other writers etc. How do you think could they know these Horus-texts and meanwile write difference stories about the same topic?
3. Referall on web-sites is not arguing, it’s saying who is the one you believe in most. There is no evidence in any case. Even the theologes and Religion-scientist are in very few point the same meaning, and they dont publice in the internet, but in books only available in Bookstores and Bibliothekes for Scientist.
4. At least:
-to believe in History is believing people they think they now everting whithout seeing or expirience
-to believe in Religion is believing in expirience without thinking some times
“The Mysteries” of which the bible itself refers to itself. (1 Corinthians 15:51, Romans 16:25, Daniel 2:30) and plenty more.
Before you discredit websites you should take the time to read its contents and determine if it should be taken seriously or not. Some websites should be taken seriously, others should not. Perhaps you would like to callout the ones whom you feel are relying to heavily on websites and non-scholastic alignment with non-scholastic material.
I can assure you if your post was in any way directed towards me you are sadly mistaken. I have read websites, books, debated in person, online, and have a growing archive of scholastic debates between scholars such as Bart Ehrman vs. William Lane Craig, Richard Carrier vs. Michael Licona, Allister Mcgrath vs Christopher Hitches, and more that primarily took place at educational institutions.
Why is everyone being so lenient and nice to Deus Ex Machina? He was completely smacked in the mouth when Deus actually thought someone was pregnant by a civil war bullet.
Deus has a history of believing myths. *lol*
This is a PERFECT example of how religious believers are NOT alone in being gullible, lazy and stupid.
Acharya S and a couple others simply lie to the public to sell books. It’s easy to falsify their claims but most atheists are either too dumb or too lazy to corroborate the information. They violate their own basic arguments against Christianity and simply take the author’s position on faith. The first time I saw these lies I said “Wow, what amazing information!” and then UNLIKE most atheists – I actually thought I’d CORROBORATE the assertions before posting it to my site. They’re mostly lies.
Nunya at the beginning demonstrates the arguments of the Christian used by an atheist.
He begins by openly and sometimes viciously denegrating his opponent.
He simply cuts and pastes the lies he read as some sort of authority.
Whenever a point is made, Nunya uses the “table turning” tactic saying “Oh Yeah, well Christianity’s argument is just as stupid.” as if that’s a valid point.
He then ignores mistakes and makes flimsy excuses for open errors. Even, redefingin words and rewriting Egyptian mythology the way Christians rewrite the Bible. “When I say virgin, I didn’t mean what we all think of by virgin…”
Atheists: F***ING CORROBORATE YOUR INFORMATION BEFORE USING IT! YOU MAKE US ALL LOOK LIKE IDIOTS! AND STOP DEFENDING CONMEN! JUST BECAUSE THEY’RE ATHEISTS DOESN’T AUTOMATICALLY MEAN THAT THEY’RE TELLING THE TRUTH!
Actually, the way he used virgin is more in context of the time. It’s comprehending in context, not “rewriting.” The fact that you think it is, is an indication of much you know about “Egyptian Mythology.” Would you like to explain this error more analytically? I would love to see how you think he’s “rewriting” Egyptian mythology.