Ending the Myth of Horus

[Editor’s Note: It was my intent to have a reply ready before posting this, but I’ve found myself putting it off due to a busy weekend so I’m going to go ahead and post it as is. I’ll address it properly in the comments as soon as I have the opportunity though I’m sure there are several regulars who will probably be more than capable of addressing it first.]


I’ve heard repeated here several times that Horus, an Egyptian god, is carbon copy of Jesus.  The obvious implication by those that have made this statement is that Jesus is a copycat version of an earlier Egyptian deity.  The purpose of this entry is to disembowel that proposition once and for all.

When I first heard that Horus was the inspiration for Jesus several years ago, I didn’t give it much credence because I couldn’t establish any source material for the claims.  I still can’t, but the internet is as adept at allowing anybody and everybody to pass on misinformation.

Upon further research, I’ve concluded that this theory originated with Gerald Massey, an English poet, born 1828, died 1927.  He published primarily poems, but had an interest in Egypt.  He parlayed that interest in Egypt into several books and lectures in which he set forth the proposition that Horus was in essence the first Jesus, and Jesus was a cheap imitation.  The primary basis for his writing is the Egyptian Book of the Dead.  This is available on-line and you can easily look it up to read it yourself.  Be forewarned that forced reading of this would be an extremely efficient form of torture.

It should be noted that Massey’s actual proposition was that Jesus was a copycat from more than just Horus.  According to Massey, Jesus was a compilation of an innumerable number of Egyptian deities.  There were over 2,000 deities who had every human and godlike characteristic one can think of, excepting Superman’s power to stop a speeding bullet.

Since Massey, there is a dearth of anybody with any credentials that has adopted a straight Horus=Jesus theory.  There is a one individual that has adopted some of Massey’s thoughts and incorporated them into a book-The Christ Conspiracy.  This appears to be the basis for the claims that I see.  The author is Acharya S.  Her website is http://www.truthbeknown.com I note that Richard Price, a noted Christ Myther, and one that I take much more seriously then Acharya, said the following:

“Those of use who uphold any version of the controversial Christ Myth theory find ourselves immediately the object not just of criticism, but even of ridicule. And it causes us chagrin to be lumped together with certain writers with whom we share the Christ Myth butt little else…..

His other criticism, like mine, is that she uses very dated sources (19th Century) who were in Price’s words “eccentrics, freethinkers, and theosophists.”

Les, I am using your post from 1/3/05 as an example of the claims because you carry more credibility than most. That said here are the claims and what I have found:

Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin.

Horus’s mother is Isis.  Isis was married to Osiris.  We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated.  Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though.  After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake.  Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, humps him and here comes Horus.  There is nothing virginal about that.

Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)

As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary.  In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is.  Seb is Osiris’s father.  Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph.  Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.

Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.

This is accurate.

Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds.

I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds.  I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds.  In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave.  Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave.

Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels.

There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it.  Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus.  When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth.  To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/carrier_luxor_inscription.htm

Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)

There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen.  The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus.  See the website referenced in Claim #5.

Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them.

There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus.  so this is accurate.

Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.

There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12.  In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.”  That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple.  Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others.

Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories.  In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer.  This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account.  There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this.  There is nothing.

Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples.

According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers.  There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him.  Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did.  Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.

Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers.  Horus is not present in this scene.  For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural.  In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy.  Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus.  Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene.  They did not.

Claim #10-Both walked on water.

Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did.  Massey does not maintain that Hours did.  Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus.  Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night.  Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day.

As to Acharya, she as usual provides nothing to substantiate this.

Claim #11-Both performed miracles.

This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.

Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus.

The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus.  It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life.  There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story.  Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead.

Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.

These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion.  Yet, I can locate none of this.  No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection.  There was an incident in which Horus was torn to pieces and Iris requested the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was tossed into, which was done, but that’s it.  I am at a loss to refute this because I can not find anything to support it.

Massey does compares a story about the Autumn Equinox related to Osiris, not Horus, as the symbolic crucifixion.  There is no indication that Horus is involved in any way.  There is no mention by Massey of any Sermon on the Mount.  No mention or any actual crucifixion, no two thieves, no burial in a tomb.  Massey does not maintain that anything of the sort occurred with Horus.

In short, of the claims outlined in this entry, I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murder plots against them.

909 comments

  1. ROTFL, there are about 200 such simularities between Heru/Horus & your alleged SUN GOD Jesus, in the usual Christian fashion you will of course deny them all dreaming up anything you can in desperation.

    There is positively no denying the fact that Jesus is a carbon copy of Horus.

    Im simply going to pull a Christian and just stick my fingers in my ears and shout LALALALALALALA as my proof. Wouldn’t do a bit of good listing anything, so why exactly bother?

    Just more for you to deny.

  2. Consigliere – speaking as someone who knows very little about the subject, I have to say that you make a good argument against the theory that Jesus is a carbon copy of Horus. However, you forgot to mention one other comparison that strikes me quite strongly – both stories seem as unlikely and unbelievable as each other.

  3. Missy- You speak for me too.
    I don’t want to be responsible for thread drift here and get a tonguelashing from Consi (the horror! the horror!), but from what I’ve read (I’m certainly no expert) it seems as though Mithra has a better case than Horus anyway, what with Dec. 25 birthday, twelve disciples, virgin birth, death and resurrection, etc; check out:
    http://www.vetssweatshop.net/dogma.htm
    Of course, this could all be lies by evil atheists (or maybe even Zoroastrians- hey, maybe that explains Iran being part of the “axis of evil”.  Oops- I forgot that the Persians have moved on from Ahura Mazda).  There’s a lot of garbage on the ‘net, and it’s often hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.
    The resemblances (also with Horus, if any) could have worked both ways to some extent (depending on how we date extant writings), or have come from yet older, lost, traditions.  I’m no comparative theologist, but the ideas of, say, virgin birth and death/resurrection strike me as pretty obvious moves in establishing godhood, not necessarily plagiarized.  We’ll probably never know for sure.

  4. Les:

    Thank you.  You continue to impress me.

    zilch:

    No tongue lashing.  I fear you have a side that enjoys being chastised.  That said, the sole purpose of the entry was to take on the Horus claims.  Mithra must wait for another day for my attention.

    Regards,

  5. Ok OK just a few, why I bother I dont know.

    Lets see.

    Horus was the “Only begotten son of the God Osiris” Cant deny it, take your fingers out of your ears.

    Jesus was the “Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit)” True?

    Horus’s mother was “MERI” which is the “Nature goddess aspect” of “Isis” or “Isis-Meri”, you see each god or goddess in the Kemetic religion are all aspects of many others, even though there are 1000s of Egyptian Gods they are ALL forms, attributes or phases of Ra, the solar god, who himself was the supreme symbol or metaphor for God….Horus, the son of Osirus and Isis, is himself an aspect of Ra.”

    The mother of Jesus is “Miriam” (a.k.a. Mary).

    The foster father of Horus was Seb, the Earthly father

    Jesus had an Earthly father named Joseph,  Both of which were of “Royal decent”

    Horus was born “In a cave”.

    Jesus was born “In a cave or stable” depending on which fairytale you believe.

    Horus was Heralded by the Star “Sirius” and witnessed by “3 solar deities”

    Jesus by “A Star in the East” Sirius which just so happens to be the Brightest star in the East that rises at dawn, imagine that.
    The “3 Wise men” BTW are the 3 stars on “Orions Belt” The title of these 3 stars for 1000s of years was “The 3 Kings of Orion” DOH!
    You like all Christians cant seem to get it into your head that ALL of the Bible is an Astrological Story therefore you cant see the obvious, well basically you refuse to see the obvious.

    Horus birth date, Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (typically DEC 21-22) though Dec 25th being the date that the SUN begins to “rise again”.

    Jesus Birth date is recognized as Dec 25th, The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc. Hmmm why would Christians chose such a date I wonder? Sun God comes to mind.

    Lets see, “Death threat while an infant” Horus got this good news from Herut which tried to have Horus murdered.

    Jesus received the same threat from Herod. even the names of “Herut & Herod” are amazingly similar dont you think? Take note also since we KNOW Herod died in 4 BCE that Christians had to do what? Yep simply shifted dates of the alleged birth to “make it fit”.

    What did each Mother do? Horus: A God tells Horus’ mother “Come, thou goddess Isis-Meri, hide thyself with thy child.”

    Jesus mother Miriam/Mary :An angel tells Jesus’ father to: “Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.”

    Each had a “rite of passage” ritual.
    Horus came of age with a special ritual,  when his eye was restored, his age? “12”!

    For Jesus, Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar mitzvah ritual, his age? Why “12” of course. Hence is when they BOTH “came of age”

    Now between the ages of 12-30 BOTH Horus & Jesus there is absolutely NOTHING written pertaining to either one during these years they BOTH basically disappeared. Hmmmmm

    Horus was Baptized in the river “Eridanus”. This is actually a Constellation called Eridanus that looks like a river in the sky.

    Jesus Baptized in the river Jordan.

    Horus baptized by “Anup the baptiser”.

    Jesus baptized by “John the Baptist”

    What happened to BOTH these mythical baptisers?
    Yep BOTH “Beheaded”

    Both Jesus & Horus went through a “Temptation” at the exact same time in their lives.
    Horus: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set-An) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan.

    Jesus: Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan. Anything similar here you think?

    The result of BOTH those temptations? why they both “resist” of course.

    as for the “Virgin Birth” you say there is nothing “virginal” about Isis-Meri conceiving Horus WITHOUT the “seed of the living father” I.E. Osirus was both DEAD and had no Penis, Isis-Meri made a dildo out of clay…..Mkay sounds just as “virginal” as some Holy Spirit coming down and Boinking Miriam/Mary to me. to each his own.

    The “12 Disciples” of BOTH Heru/Horus & Jesus.

    Well let me step on your feet, grab your neck /em *grabs neck* and biotchslap you till you bleed, LOL maybe just maybe then it might sink in to that thick virtually impenetrable wall of Cognitive Dissonance you like most Christians have built around your brain that BOTH, Heru/Horus & Jesus are what?  SUN GODS!!.
    The 12 Disciples are the 12 signs of the ZODIAC.!
    DOH! Biotchslap, Biotchslap, biotchslap.

    Horus, Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He “stilled the sea by his power.” it was said about Horus.

    Jesus, Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a “Peace, be still” command.

    Lets see what else, I’m just going off top of my head here.
    What about the place where the alleged “resurrection” miracle occurred?
    OK for Horus that was Anu, an Egyptian city where the rites of the death, burial and resurrection of Horus were enacted annually.

    For Jesus, Hebrews added their prefix for house (‘beth”) to “Anu” to produce “Beth-Anu” or the “House of Anu.” Since “u” and “y” were interchangeable in antiquity, “Bethanu” became “Bethany,” the location mentioned in John 11.

    Horus raised “Asar” which is the Kemetic “Osirus” from the dead. He was referred to as “the Asar,” as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, this is “El-Asar.” The Romans added the prefix “us” to indicate a male name, producing “Elasarus.” Over time, the “E” was dropped and “s” became “z,” producing “Lazarus.”

    “Walking on Water”?  first off the “Oannes” you spoke of is where the story of “Jonah” comes from in the Bible, has nothing to do with Jesus or walking on water, Oannes is the Babylonian fish-god, as written in the Septuagint in Greek it is “Ioannes” which transliterated in today’s alphabet would be “Joannes” which would be the Greco-Babylonian writing for Jonah.  Once again, look UP grasshopper because this is ALL ASTROLOGICAL in origin, Oannes is the constellation Piscis Austrinus which is a fish drinking the waters pouring from the jars of Aquarius. The depiction of Oannes/Joannes/Jonah was the top half was a man the bottom half a fish, which obviously gives the look of being “swallowed by a great fish”.

    As for either Jesus OR Horus “walking on Water” both do of course “figuratively” just like the light of the Moon at night “walks on the water” in reflection. So does Horus & Jesus as you see these are not REAL living breathing human beings and NEVER have been they are an allegory for the SUN, thus they can figuratively walk on water.

    I can go on & on, but this will do for a start, you can deny all you like but that is not going to change the fact that Jesus is virtually identical to Heru/Horus in so many ways that its impossible to not see it.

    How can you not look at this http://www.cuttingedge.org/JP_Sunburst_Monstrance.jpg  and with a straight face say this isn’t “Sun God Worship”  ROTFL

  6. Nunya:

    Before I respond to the material you post, which in many places is simple wrong, and bears a strinking resemblence to Acharya’s work, please refer me to a reference for each claim you make.  There are none in your post.  All I have is you saying “Is So!!!”

    It would be very helpful for everybody, you, me, and all the readers have the same opportunity to read the literature and investigate the sources that you are relying on.  So, please give us the source documents to substantiate EACH claim that Horus=Jesus and not cut and paste stuff.

    Regards,

  7. And YOUR reference for your bogus claims are what exactly?
    That one single Christian Apologetics site? The one word ministries or something like that.  LOL

    Honestly, If you seriously want to discuss this subject first thing you need to do is pull your head out of those completely full of Bullshit Christian sites, you are never going to get any valid information from them.

    This a good place to start http://www.earth-history.com/Egypt/Bodead/bodead-06-eternal-life.htm

    A real non bias site that deals in nothing but tangible Archeological facts.  Dig through this site you will find most of what I listed, although allot of what Iam saying is coming from about 30 years of researching this subject and hundreds of sources, most in my library downstairs.

    This site is OK for brief references to the Book of the Dead.
    http://www.historel.net/livremorts/indexeng.htm

    Though this site has a bit of chaff its rather interesting also with some valid points of information.
    http://www.taroscopes.com/astro-theology/astrotheology2.html

    Iv stated nothing that is “simple wrong” I’ll leave that job up to you.

    I can tell from what you are saying that you get 99% of your false info from horribly bias and downright wrong Christian Apologetics Ministries sites.

  8. Nunay, I’m not making any claim other than after reading the Book of the Dead, The Origins of Christianity by Acharya, the lecture the Historical Myth of Jesus Christ by Gerald Massey, that the claims being made that Horus=Jesus are not substantiated.  All you have to do is substantiate the claim. 

    So that we may stay focused, let us look first at Claim #1 and proceed from there, before addressing your additional claims which are uncited.

    Claim #1-Horus was born of a virgin.

    From the site you directed me to is this page which chronicles the birth of Horus, although seemingly lacking in some detail.

    http://www.earth-history.com/Egypt/Legends/gods-10summary5.htm

    This page supports what I said.  Isis has intercourse with Osiris whence comes Horus.  Nothing virginal about the conception of Horus.

    There is nothing in the Astro-Theology site that you referred me to that would indicate that Horus was born from a virgin Isis.

    I have failed to find, and you have failed to direct me to a site that can point to Egyptian text or hieroglphics which substantiate that Horus was born from a virgin.

    Since this is the foundational claim you and others have made that Horus=Jesus, please do me the favor of offering up the Egyptian myth or hieroglyphic that would substantiate such a claim.

    Regards,

  9. So being impregnated by a “Dead man” without a penis is NOT a Virgin birth in your book eh?

    K then forget the Virgin idea.

    Obviously you can of course nit-pick every last detail in the usual Christian fashion and deny or refuse to accept anything based on whatever belief you have, that’s easily done regardless what evidence is put forth.

    BTW on that same note I can say right here that Jesus was NOT born of a Virgin, there is just as much evidence that says Mary was a WHORE BTW, and getting boinked by the so called “Holy Spirit” is still planting the Ol seed, it also makes Jesus a Bastard.

    So IN MY BOOK, Jesus was NOT born of a “Virgin Birth”  See how easy that is.

    So Both are debunked, Next.

  10. Meanwhile what you keep failing to acknowledge is the FACT that Neither entity Horus or Jesus are Real in any natural sense, they are both fictitious SUN GODS, & Jesus is without question an allegory for the Sun in the Bible which is merely an Astrological Drama.

    Sooner you accept that, the easier it will be for you to realize what is fact and what is Bullshit here.
    Soon as you accept that, the Bible all of a sudden makes perfect sense, until you do you will do nothing but flounder trying in desperation to defend the indefensible & fruitlessly try to make sense of the absurd.

  11. Oh and just to get you on the right track about this “Virgin” thing.

    THINK ASTROLOGICAL!

    You see Miriam/Mary IS none other than ISIS just like Horus is Jesus, they are one in the same.

    All the Sisters & Wives of the various SUN GODS be they Miriam/Mary/Isis-Meri/Artemis etc are all one in the same and they are ALL an allegory for VIRGO! which is what?……The Virgin.

    Here are a few of your Virgin Mothers and such take your pick.
    http://www.crosscircle.com/CH_2m.htm

    All the same.

    Im telling ya, Im not wrong on this, Iv never been more 100% positive about anything.

  12. I’m not familiar with the no penis part.  My understanding was that Isis formed a substitute penis (man’s first literary dildo) for him. 

    Your modification of the bible account takes us down a road that we need not travel, although it might be interesting.  Whether Mary was real or not, and if real, was in actuality copulating with every Tom, Dick, and Harry doesn’t effect our analysis. You and I, and anybody reading this, are only interested in looking at what the bible texts say versus what the Egyptian texts say to see if one copied the other.  The Jesus stories contained in the bible, the alleged copycat versions, don’t ascribe whore like qualities to Mary so we need not concern ourselves with the truth of falsity of such allegations. 

    Absent further evidence to contrary, we can dismiss the alleged virginal birth similarities and move to Claim #2

    Claim #2-Both Mothers are named Mary.  Both Fathers are Joseph.

    Using the same link that you gave us before, I find that Isis is the mother of Horus.  I find that Osiris is Horus’s father.  When I look here http://members.aol.com/Egyptart/hormyth.html and here http://towerwebproductions.com/alt-lib/myth/eyeofhorus.shtml I find further confirmation of this.  Although, the second link suggests that one version has Horus born of the cow goddess Hathur.

    In addition, when I review the original Papyrus of Ani (Book of the Dead) rather than websites that paraphrase it, The Hymn to Osiris contained here http://www.sas.upenn.edu/African_Studies/Books/Papyrus_Ani.html substantiates my position that Horus is the sone of Isis and Osiris, rather than a Mary and Joseph.

    Should anyone take issue with this, please refer me to the specific Egyptian text or hieroglyphics which would substantiate a claim Horus was born to a Mary and Joseph rather than an Isis and Osiris.

    Regards,

  13. Nunya:

    I note that after a quick review of this site http://www.crosscircle.com/CH_2m.htm I find no references to original text, just conclusions. If you and I, and any readers here are to take those conclusions as true, we must be able to reference back to the original documents to see if the conclusions stand up to scrutiny. 

    To blindly accept the conclusions in the website above is akin to me asking you to accept everything I’ve said.  That’s prepostorous and you shouldn’t do that.  Nor should I accept what you say. We should be doing what we are doing now—examining the contentions, looking at the materials, and seeing if the proof is in the pudding.

    Regards,

  14. originally posted by Nunyabiz:
    And YOUR reference for your bogus claims are what exactly?
    That one single Christian Apologetics site? The one word ministries or something like that.  LOL

    I never thought I would see an ad hominem argument from the atheist side.  Come on Nunya be real, just because your sites aren’t blatantly ridiculing religion or christianity doesn’t make them any less biased.  I have been going through your list of sites from the Theocracy thread and have been coming to the same conclusions Consigliere has.

    Originally posted by Nunyabiz:
    THINK ASTROLOGICAL!

    You have also provided http://www.usbible.com/usbible/ http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/nh.html to make your astrology point.  Let’s not stop with Christianity though when we can also thank astrology for giving us Julius Caesar and atomic power. http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0001861.HTM Not to mention astrology has planned out our history and future. http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/GlastonburyArchive/ephem/ea-index.html Astrology is not science and it is too vague to be interpreted as the predecesor to anything.

  15. I also forgot to mention that similar to your belief Astrology explains the happenings of this world because it is so vague, I give little credence to the “Bible Code” because math algorithms can make a large amount of text say anything.  Do you give credence to the theory that Nostradamus predicted 9/11?  I don’t.

  16. I’m not familiar with the no penis part.  My understanding was that Isis formed a substitute penis (man’s first literary dildo) for him.

    I’m not familiar with this either, and I’ve read most of the Book of the Dead.  I’m reluctant to undertake another reading because it became quite boring after the first couple of chapters.  In fact, much of the stuff dealing with how you should memorize certain lines, or have them carved on your tomb, so that you can “master water and air in the next world” was so stultifyingly boring that it reminded me of the ‘begats’ in the OT. 

    From what I -do- recall, the Book of the Dead says that Isis ‘takes’ Osiris’s ‘essence’, and ‘fashions’ a child.  Which is ambiguous enough that it could be read as “she fucked his revivified corpse” or “she drew out his soul and literally sculpted/made a child.” 

    Hardly conclusive for either side of the argument.

    If you could point us toward the ‘missing penis’ portion of the text, that would be appreciated.  If you could even narrow the reference down to which particular ‘book’ in the BOD, that would be helpful.

  17. I have no stake in this nor am I particularly interested in the topic. What I’d like to point out, though, is that neither of you does a decent job of referring back to the sources. Since there seem to be multiple translation of the Book of the Dead, which one is considered authoritative amongst scholars and where is it on the web?

  18. “I didn’t give it much credence because I couldn’t establish any source material for the claims”

    I feel *exactly* the same way about Christianity.

  19. El,

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/index.htm

    This is complete.  It is difficulty reading compared with the other link I posted above.

    I agree with you regarding sources.  However, it is impossible to cite to a source that I can not find.  If you read my initial entry, almost everything reads as follows:  Here is what I know happens, I am unable to find [fill in your choice of claims].  I can’t source that which I don’t have.

    That was the whole point of this entry and the discussion that has ensued.  The claims can’t be substantiated.

    Regards

  20. That was the whole point of this entry and the discussion that has ensued.  The claims can’t be substantiated.

    I’m not convinved of that, but then I don’t care about how similar the books are.

  21. I’m not familiar with the no penis part.  My understanding was that Isis formed a substitute penis (man’s first literary dildo) for him.

    Um yeah, That’s no working dick in my book, but once again we are talking about fictitious characters here which somehow you just dont seem to want to let go of thinking these entities are real, comes from being Christian/religious and believing in fairytales I guess.
    Until you acknowledge the FACT that what we are talking about here are mere stories, allegories then there is hardly much reason to continue running around the same bush till we turn to butter, will be just like the old Creation Vs Evolution argument, I can put forth volumes of evidence giving proof for Evolution, yet all you need to do is deny it all and keep believing in fairytales and we are still where we started.

    For some reason I cant seem to get it through to you that in Kemetic Mythology these names are as interchangeable as putting on a hat, let me give you just a few names used by ISIS, Isis-MERI, Khut, Usert, Thenenet, Sati, sept, Anqet,Ankhet,Sekhet,Renenet,Tcheft, Ament,
    Uatchet, Net, Bast, Aset, I can go on & on there are 100s I think, but if you dont get the gist by now then there’s no point.
    Also as mentioned above from Nowiser which is correct, Isis basically impregnated “Herself” with Osiris’s dead body, she was also Osiris’s Sister as well as Wife, she was a Magician, a Water goddess, Earth Goddess, Corn Goddess, the giver of life & food to the dead, when Set tore Osiris’s body into 14 pieces then scattered them all up and down the length of the Nile for the gators to eat, Isis took the form of a Kite, Anubis took the form of a Jackal to help her, she was accompanied by seven scorpions to guard her, when she found each piece of body she by magic formed a “likeness” of the entire body and made priest build shrines and perform rites at each of the 13 spots so as to confuse Set, she then took all the 13 pieces rejoined them by “magic” while she was at it whipped up a nice big dong to replace the one eaten by the fish, then embalmed the body and hide it away so the spirit of Osiris passed into Amenti to rule over the dead until the last great battle.
    Now Im just going to assume you dont think any of this real by any stretch of the imagination.

    So, having said all that, the little minor detail of her simply making herself a VIRGIN just cant happen at all can it? ROTFL

    All of these mythical magical Virgin Mother fairytales which BTW there are many not just Isis-Meri & Mary, but all the other Sun Gods magically had their very own Virgin mother to, because these are Stories son, just stories based on Astrological fables, these “Virgins” are all allegories for the Constellation Virgo. Which gives Birth to all the Sun Gods, be it Horus, Jesus, Apollo, Krishna, plus 16 or so others etc.

    #2.. Isis-Meri is the Mother, Osiris the “Heavenly father” though SEB is the “Earthly Father” which is precisely the same as your particular Sun God which is Miriam/Mary the Mother, God/Yahweh the heavenly father, & Joseph the Earthly father, not sure why that is so hard for you to grasp.

    Theocrat: “Astrology is not science and it is too vague to be interpreted as the predecesor to anything. “

    Uh well DUH, make no mistake which obviously you have, I dont give a fucking ratz ass about Astrology, I dont believe anything about Astrology, its pure Bullshit which is exactly what Religion is, pure Bullshit because most all Religions are based on Astrology, that’s the whole point….DOH!
    Now even though I certainly dont believe anything about Astrology doesn’t mean that I can not connect the dots and see that it is obviously the root of Christianity, matter of fact its most likely why most Atheist can connect the dots while those infected with the Meme of Christianity can not. Whether you think so or not, YOU believe in Astrology because that is the entire root source of Christianity.
    That fact can hardly be more obvious.
    Christianity is based on much older Pagan religions from Sumeria & Babylon which are heavily steeped in Astrology & Numerology, the Bible, Torah, Cabal, are chock full of it cover to cover, hard to believe so many are so brainwashed by such insanity & yet have virtually no idea what the hell it is they are brainwashed with.

    Consig, Speaking of “sources” which you seem to be so enamored with, you have NOTHING but ONE old Book which you have no idea whom wrote 90% of it as your alleged source, that is so full of contradictions & absurdities that how in the hell can you sit there with a straight face and claim it as honest source material?
    There isn’t anything that proves squat about the Bible & Christianity, that is why the old church elders came up with the old, you must rely solely on “Faith” scam, I must say it has worked well on the uneducated, the poor, the downtrodden, reaching grasping for anything to help themselves, or to calm their fears of death & to take the easy answers made up from old Astrological fairytales of ancient bronze age Bedouins.
    So speaking of claims that “can’t be substantiated”.  Neither can your “belief” in Christianity based solely on “faith”.

    Yet you demand absolute 101% irrefutable, undeniable, positively provable from every angle rock solid *Proof* of anything that goes against your belief of your particular Sun God.  Then of course even if you are given that proof, the very nature of your mythological magical beliefs makes it incredibly easy to flatly deny it all at the wave of a magic wand.  So basically as it stands there is NOTHING that I can ever say or do or prove to any degree that will ever sway your mind from believing in the fairytale of Christianity, nor can I get you to understand that ALL these mythologies/Religions are all inter-related and all based on what you consider Paganism, they are all based on Astrology & Numerology, that fact is plain to me, but NEVER will be to YOU.
    There is nothing I can ever present that will break down that thick wall of Cognitive Dissonance you have built around that belief you have in Christianity, I liken it to throwing sand at Hoover dam to wear it down, because that’s about what its like to argue with a Christian about things that go against that belief you have brainwashed yourself into believing so deeply.

    So unless you can take some things said by us (in your mind) poor deluded Atheist on “Faith” just like you MUST do in order to swallow the load of crap ALL Religions fling, then all we are ever going to accomplish here is to make a pile of ChristoAtheist Butter running round & round in circles.

    If you want 101% irrefutable absolutely infallible positive proof, then you are NOT GOING TO GET IT, EVER.
    Neither you nor I can prove to that degree that we are all on a planet named Earth revolving around the Sun, so what the hell makes you think you are going to get such proof about old ancient Mythologies (which includes Christianity btw) derived from old fairytales as told mainly from Oral Tradition handed down through generations from many different languages with very few scribes here & there scratching these old fairytales into Clay Tablets or later on scribbling them onto papyri or sheepskin, THEN 2-3-4-5-6000 years later what few remnants are left finding them and deciphering what they all mean….ROTFL…….Please, get a grip, just is not ever going to happen.
    You can brainwash yourself all you like to believe the sheer absurdity of Christianity, and you do so with ZERO proof of anykind, not one shred, but dont expect the impossible from me, there is nothing whatsoever I can present to you that will make any difference, your mind is made up, that wall of Cognitive Dissonance can only come down from within.

  22. What about Mithras?
    I have no source to cite, but my passing familiarity with that story also had some jesus similarities.
    I’ve seen others argue the point of the jesus story imitating Mithras.
    Is there anything to that?

  23. Yes there is, Mithras is yet another Sun God exactly the same as the Sun God Jesus.

    There are many Similarities between the 2 and the Mythology of Mythraism is older than Christianity, so it was Christians that copied some of the attributes if Mythras into the fictional character of Jesus which is also an allegory for the Sun.

  24. Well, as I see it, if you’re using a penis (living or dead) to impregnate yourself, you ain’t no virgin.  Just sayin’.

  25. Well as I see if you are being impregnated with a Ghost living or dead, you aint no Virgin either.

    Now unless you have a video of the “divine event” showing the waving of the perverbial magic dongwand then there isn’t anything some Christian can spew that is going to change that either.

    and once again, the ONLY way you can have what anyone might call a “Virgin Birth” which lets face it,  is pathetically absurd to begin with, is for this Virginal undertaking to be purely allegorical, which is exactly what BOTH are, they are Astrological tales of Virgo giving Birth to the Sun.

  26. Not quite.  Those little buggers can actually swim their way to the egg from outside the vagina if you’re not careful, so if there was no intercourse and no rupture of the hymen, you could still be called a virgin in the strict sense.

    But nobody wants to hear about the technicalities of divine seed being spilled … wink

  27. But nobody wants to hear about the technicalities of divine seed being spilled

    “And the Spirit did prematurly blow his wad upon Mary’s belly…” Book of Hefner 6:66

    Sorry, had to do it.

  28. Adrienne:  I have seen comparisons of the two, but am unable to address the veracity of those claims.  Hopefully, at some point, I can speak to such claims.  The sole purpose of this thread was to prevent the cutting and pasting allegations that Horus=Jesus when there is no substantiation for such claims.

    Nunya: The only thing relevant is what each text says.  What does the BOD say and what does the Bible say.  The veracity of each is completely irrelevant.  Our only issue is whether Jesus is a copycat of Horus. 

    So, when the Bible says Mary was a virgin, we assume for purposes of that story that she was.  When the Egyptian text says Isis humped Osiris after affixing a penis on him, we assume for purpose of that story that she did.  In comparing the 2 stories, which is our purpose here, we find that Mary is alleged to be a virgin and that Isis was not.  That is not a similarity.

    We also have found that Horus’s mother was not named Mary. Hourus’s father was not named Joseph.  We have now dispelled claim #2.

    You have modified the claim and said that Seb is analgous to Joseph.  That is different than the claim put forth in Les’s account, but I will address it.

    If you read Plate II from BOD, you will find that Seb(also known as Geb) is the father of Osiris, not Horus.  Furthermore, it is clearly apparent that Seb is an Egyptian god.  When we refer to Luke in the bible, Joseph is clearly not a god.  He is clearly human.  The analogy fails.

    Claim #2 has been dispelled.

    Claim #3 is accurate.  The first similarity between Jesus and Horus is that the were of royal lineage.

    Nunya adds a claim that Horus and Jesus were born in a cave.  This has no basis in the text with respect to Horus.  This has no basis in the text with respect to Jesus.

    Absent a referral to the BOD or Pyramid Texts, this claim may be dismissed.  Is there any reference anyone has found to Horus being born in a cave?

    Regards,

  29. I’ve become convinced that Christianity was inspired by man’s desire to give birth, borne from jealousy of women who could. Birth, or rebirth in this case, trumps any conception the lowly woman could manage and you know those early Catholics: they couldn’t stand for a woman to be better than, or even just as good as, any man.

  30. Well, yes, Brock, and that also explains circumcision (a blood rite to mimic the women’s).  God was invented to have more power over life and death than women did so that men could “speak for him.”  As far as I know, that was the first religion that made such a big deal of chastity … (I may be wrong.  Consi?)

  31. Consig going by your requirements there is no substantial evidence whatsoever that Jesus=Jesus.

    There is not one single shred of verifiable evidence to support the bullshit claimed in the Bible.
    So that settles that.

  32. Whether the bible is bullshit or not, does not matter.  This issue, should be approached the same whether one is an atheist or theist.  Put the texts side by side and compare them.

    All I am doing is a comparison of texts to determine if the claims that you and others here have made stand up.  The claim at issue, again is that Horus=Jesus.  That is the only issue here.  So far, it is clear that there are only 3 similarities. 

    If you have texts or hieroglypics that you can reference that I am not including, please, please, feel free to contribute them and point out the similarities between the two.  Absent that, I will continue to go through the claims one at time, and dispel each of those claims as lacking any textual support. 

    Regards,

  33. Originally posted by Nunyabiz:
    Now even though I certainly dont believe anything about Astrology doesn’t mean that I can not connect the dots and see that it is obviously the root of Christianity, matter of fact its most likely why most Atheist can connect the dots while those infected with the Meme of Christianity can not.

    Originally posted by Nunyabiz:
    Until you acknowledge the FACT that what we are talking about here are mere stories, allegories then there is hardly much reason to continue running around the same bush till we turn to butter, will be just like the old Creation Vs Evolution argument, I can put forth volumes of evidence giving proof for Evolution, yet all you need to do is deny it all and keep believing in fairytales and we are still where we started.

    So if a person were to try and provide enough evidence to at least give you reason to doubt that which you claim to “know” where would they start?  Your mind seems to be made up and entirely not open to anything we could possibly present.  Thirty years of research seems to equate a perfect knowledge of history in regards to religion on your part.  I don’t believe that, but I seem to have a hard time getting enough respect from you to even consider anything I have to say.  So as we have done a decent job at dispelling your Apollonius conspiracy, and at least have provided arguments to dispel a lot of the claims you now make about the similarities between ancient religion = the entire falsity of Christianity the question comes up where are we supposed to start providing arguments to challenge your knowledge?

    You give no credence to astrology, but you use it as evidence to believe Christianity is a hoax.  So if we disprove your similarities what does it matter because Christianity is already a fairy tale.  I don’t think it is a fairy tale and I can’t prove it to you because you won’t consider any evidence that it isn’t.  So what are we going to do?  This discussion relies on the ability of all parties to keep an open mind to all evidence presented.  What we do and where we go with this thread depends on both parties allowing what they “know” to be able to be challenged and to be able to concede when they have no answer to an allegation.  Nunyabiz answer these questions:  Where do I have to start with my evidence to give you reason to doubt what you “know”?  Can you open you mind enough to allow the possibility of any evidence presented in defense of the Christian “fairy tale” to allow an intelligent and rational debate where we don’t have to degrade to ad hominem attacks as you have been so willing to do in your last few posts?  I have no interest in following this topic if I can’t get cooperation on those questions.

  34. GM:

    I don’t know about circumcision as a blood rite.  As to chastity, I do know that before the Catholic emphasis on chastity, that there were other reiligions that emphasized chastity, most notably, Buddhism.  (See the 5 precepts) However, the influence upon the early Church was likely the Essenes who were strict about everything.  The fun kids they were not.

    Regards,

  35. Theocrat:  we….provided arguments to dispel a lot of the claims you now make about the similarities between ancient religion = the entire falsity of Christianity

    Whoa, partner!!  Don’t overstep the bounds of what is happening here.  All that is happening in this thread is that we are finding out by a comparison of the texts that Jesus is not a copy of Horus.

    So far we have examined only Egyptian texts, no others. The thread does not address other ancient relgions, just Egyptian mythology as it relates to Horus.  Nor does it prove or disprove the validity or falsity of Christianity. 

    Please, please, don’t overstate the positions in this thread, or it will go to hell in a handbasket very quickly.

    Regards,

  36. So as we have done a decent job at dispelling your Apollonius conspiracy,

    You haven’t dispelled squat concerning Apollonius , actually there was nothing to dispel, all Iv ever mentioned about him is the possibility that he could be the role model used for the Jesus character,  and the only other thing I even presented as a mere hypothesis, mind you a hypothesis with AT LEAST as much evidence as any source in the Bible, which is extremely sparse was the “Piso” hypothesis. Which is somewhat of a stretch although does make some sense, and does answer a few questions that otherwise are unanswerable, but none the less eminently more believable than talking snakes, and miracle working Sun Gods.  So not much I can see for you to pat yourself on the back for.

    So if a person were to try and provide enough evidence to at least give you reason to doubt that which you claim to “know

  37. When the Egyptian text says Isis humped Osiris after affixing a penis on him, we assume for purpose of that story that she did

    Could someone please please please point me to, or quote from, the relevant portion of the BoD, where Isis fashions a clay dildo and precedes to ride the ‘arisen’ Osiris?!?!?

    I’d agree that a clay dildo rather dispels the notion of virginity,* but I’m not going to reread the entire BoD to find that little kiblet.

    *(I keep thinking of the Seinfeld where he gets caught picking his nose, and keeps protesting ‘there was no penetration!”)

  38. She sought him untiringly, she wandered round and round about this
    earth in sorrow, and she alighted not without finding him. She made light with her feathers, she
    created air with her wings, and she uttered the death wail for her brother. She raised up the
    inactive members of whose heart was still, she drew from him his essence, she made an heir,
    she reared the child in loneliness, and the place where he was not known, and he grew in
    strength and stature, and his hand was mighty in the House of Keb. The Company of the Gods
    rejoiced, rejoiced, at the coming of Horus, the son of Osiris, whose heart was firm, the
    triumphant, the son of Isis, the heir of Osiris.

    From the Budge translation of BoD.

    There’s no clay cock in here.  Where’s the clay cock coming from?

    (Words I could never have imagined coming out of my own mouth).

  39. Originally posted by Nunyabiz:
    Dude, I actually respect the way you are presently your case here, I really do, honestly Both you and Consig are a pretty rare bred of Christian as very very few are capable of even the most infantile reasoning, yet the 2 of you are like a contradiction, you seem rather intelligent, capable of rational thought, yet you believe in something that clearly does not exist.

    Then please respectfully humor us and teach us otherwise.  Like you have studied the disproof for Christianity, we have studied the proof for Christianity.  Each of us have likely studied some of the proof and disproof for the otherside as well.  I don’t know everything you have studied, but it is unfair to reguire me to follow your academic footsteps.  I need to be enlightened by people who know more than I in order for me to learn what they have.  I wouldn’t know where to start in doing the research to make your conclusions.  We think differently and because we do so it would be easier to go about this if we can both respectfully answer each other as fellow intelligent human beings.  I will admit when i am wrong when I can’t create a counterargument.  I need to know it is within your ability to do the same.

  40. Nowiser:

    I don’t know that the penis was clay, some believe it was made of gold.  Anyway, the only coherent and complete version of the Osiris myth comes from Plutarch, a Greek writer, who wrote Isis and Osiris.  The individual accounts contained in BOD, the Pyramid texts, and Luxor hieroglyphics have confirmed most of what Plutarch wrote, and have led to the belief that Plutarch was working from original texts and his account can likely be trusted as at least one version of the myth. 

    Nunya is right in suggesting that piecing together the totality of the Egyptian mythology is difficult, because we are forced to cobble together what those beliefs were from such things as pottery shards.  Which makes it that much more incredible that one would extrapolate Horus=Jesus. 

    Regards,

  41. There is one underlying question that is not asked during this discussion.

    A) What is the effect of the “carbon copy” hypothesis?
    If it is shown that either Horus or Mithra or whoever is a carbon copy or a close copy, what is the effect it has on your faith? Would you renounce your faith if it is a carbon copy? And if you do not, would one turn around to use it as proof of one’s faith?

    Or is this merely a study into religion and history and nothing to do with faith at all.

    B) Implication of “carbon copy” hypothesis
    In my opinion, a carbon copy hypothesis if it is true actually gives support to religion/god existence.

    1) The existence of multiple distinct religions across the world that is strongly linked to location and time period is evidence either of
    (i) The lack of a supernatural system or
    (ii) The existence of a system in which some people are meant to fail (go to hell) right from the start. The simple reason being that there is a high chance one would pick the religion of one’s parents or if not then the society in which they live in.

    2) The existence of a unified system of religion is greater evidence (but not conclusive) of there being a supernatural system.
    (i) By unified, I do not refer to it being the same religion but rather a system that can generally encompass all the main aspects of all belief system.

    3) Therefore, the existence of a carbon copy may offer some indirect “proof” of a god/supernatural system but it would not provide proof that any one religion or even way of life is the correct one. But of course acceptance of such a hypothesis would mean that there could be multiple routes to heaven. And in fact all the different religion is an attempt to shine a light on the path to heaven. And that atheism is in effect the route to heaven for they are the people who have ascended past the rites, ceremonies and prejudices to understand the true meaning of goodness and invoke their soul to guide their actions to do good without reward, rather than merely following blindly some rules in greedy anticipation of reward.

  42. Pop Tarts:

    Interesting question.  One I didn’t consider before posting the study.  As to my own faith, I could care less what others say.  So, what’s the purpose of this thread?  I’ll give you the background and then the answer.

    Without getting into the psychology behind Christianity, many Christians show up at this site and think they can change your mind (your is used in the collective sense of the community here).  Bless their hearts, they are good people, but they are in way over their heads.  To your credit, there are some the fairly sharp tools in this shed.  You all also play for keepsies.  It’s a point of pride here that if you can’t run with the big dogs don’t get off the porch.

    I ended up here because a couple of friends that lurk here informed me that they were reading arguments that they couldn’t refute regarding a conspiracy to manufacture Jesus.  So, I showed up to see what the fuss was about.  As it turns out there wasn’t much fuss after all.

    I fell for the place, though.  I’m in stitches after I read Spocko, Les, El, GM, DS and zilch.  The humor is outstanding here if you like a Sam Kinison brand of irreverancy towards religion.  I’m twisted enough that I do. So I’ve started to hang out here.

    A couple of weeks ago though, I don’t remember the guy’s name, but Les in a post to this guy took him to task, and in doing so mentioned that Horus=Jesus.  In Les’s special way, he implied the guy was a moron for not knowing that. 

    To his credit, the guy read the Horus story and showed back up.  He had the audacity to say something to the effect of I’m not finding what you all are saying.  Suddenly, the swords came out and cut the guy to the quick.  He was treated as the village idiot and kicked around for amusement.  Shamefully, I stayed on the sidelines and let him get kicked around, because I hadn’t read the literature, was too busy to do so at the time.  I also didn’t want to hurt my own credibility by stepping into quicksand. 

    Out of guilt, I spent many hours reading the materials I could find on the subject.  What I found was that the claim that Horus=Jesus is impossible to substiante, and that nearly all the comparisons that I find, including the ones here, are cut and paste materials from some very questionable sources. 

    So I posted the entry, hoping that I could draw those folks into this discussion. Unfortunately, those that were the quickest to lash the kid, have avoided this thread now that the actors have changed.  I truly didn’t want to engage Nunya, but he was the only to step forward to defend the position.  I wanted to engage Les, but most especially, I wanted to engage DOF.  I generally respect what DOF has to say, and even read his blog.  I did want to expose the cut and paste claim for what it was. I wanted to reclaim some dignity for that kid, by kicking DOF around like he did that kid. 

    So there you have it.  The purpose of this thread was not deep, and is in fact a very base one. I do believe that the thread has exposed the Horus=Jesus claims for the bullshit that they are, which is good.  To that extent its purpose has been served.  And maybe, just maybe, those with integrity won’t slam the naive who show up here with this bogus claim. 

    Regards,

  43. I have to step in here and say that I appreciate Consi’s questioning the claim.  I always like to see someone doing the homework.  I don’t have a stake in it either way, but the Horus=Jesus claim is pretty interesting, and if people really want to thrash it out in a disciplined and scholarly fashion, I’d love to see what comes out of the crucible.

    (I also have a friend who studies Egyptology as a hobby and can read hieroglyphs; I’ll have to ask him if he knows anything about it …)

  44. If only there were a steak in this…

    I’ve never been religious myself and can’t quite figure out what people see in it (sort of like an acquired taste that’s not for me), but I suppose religion has answered the same questions over and over again and it’s therefore to be expected that it gives similar answers; it’s mildly interesting if these answers were arrived at independently or if some plagiarism was involved.

    In this case, I’d like to see a side-by-side comparison, like a table with three columns – the source text and the two respective interpretations. That way, it’s a lot easier to follow the, um, commotion.

  45. The Gods of Vulcan. Sebek & Sebek © SD4722.32

    Foreword –

      As near as today’s temporal logisticians can discern, the belief in the supernatural began tens of millennia in our past. The Logisticians of Surak find study of our primitive past helpful in the planning of contact with current day species that yet cling to the illogical concept of supernatural beings that rule over them (see LoS 432-2a7.9987-Bajor and LoS 349-77x.3118-Terra). We Once Had Gods on Vulcan documents the origins and evolution of the god(s) of Vulcan. I consider it a fascinating look into the history of belief and the power it can have over common populace.

      Sarvek 4710.88, On the Plains of Fire.

    Content:

    1) The Beginnings of Belief
        Reflections; the soul in the puddle
        Shadows
        Fear of Death
        Out of the Body?
        Darkness

    2) The Priests
        Hunters to Farmers
        The Calendar
        The Firmament
        Astronomy
        Astrology
        Sky-Watchers
        Racial Memory via Fable Transmission

    3) The Many Faces of God(s)
        Tribal Chieftans
        The Necromancer
        Medicine Men
        Shaman
        Sun Gods
        Moon Gods
        The Transients

    4) The Age of Reason
        Pre-Surakian Mythology
        Enlightenment
        Surak
        Unification

    At one time each village on Vulcan had their own god, each dying and then reborn each year! The tales of thier lives often very similar. The Logisticians speculate, quite logically, that the “priests” of the tribe realized that their most precious, indeed – life giving,  knowledge was most likely to survive from generation to generation if it was intertwined within the ancient mythology of the dead chieftans of the past and the fables of the soul and afterlife. This most important information is, of course, the knowledge of the Cycle of the Sun or the Cycle of Life.

    The greatest fear of any primitive, but sentient, being; the fear of death, produces a powerful glue to bind the neurons of belief to the psyche of the species. To imprint the story of the calendar onto the minds of the people the early astronomers/astrologers of many localities created stories about the travels of the sun through the different seasons of the year. The wise ones knew the people would only remember and pass along such information when told in allegory, therefore the winter sun and its welcoming wet days were glorified as the Good Sun and the fiery hot days of the summer herald the time of the Evil Sun. Basic agricultural information, critical to sustain the populace, was maintained in this fashion millennia before the advent of the written word. The birth and death of the Suns was celebrated each year in a synchronized dance with the routine of the seasons. Eventually only the Good Sun was worshipped. Before the enlightened days of Surak the original intent of the old stories was obscured or perverted, sometimes accidentally, sometimes with purposeful intent.

    Tales of T’Khasi (page 27)

    There were hundreds of these solar gods over the years, each one created anew or absorbed and renamed by the conquerors of the day. Each one the True God™ and the “graven images” of the older gods obliterated in an attempt to remove from memory the stories of the conquered. Still, the underlying information remains the same; when to plant, when to harvest, how to read the date by the position of the sun in the “zodiac”, the great wheel in the sky – the calendar.

    The similarity of the deities of planets such as Terra only prove that disparate peoples had the same sky to look at and needed to record the same agricultural information. How any sentient being that seeks the truth and studies the past can continue to have “faith” in this solar mythology is beyond logic!

    Peace and Long Life,
    Spocko

  46. I don’t even need it to be side by side.  I just need somebody to step up to the plate to substantiate the claims that Horus=Jesus with material from original documents.  I’ve yet to have any reference at all to translations of Egyptian texts that support any of the alleged similarities and have had to source the material myself.

    Given that, I’m claiming victory by default on this issue.  Chalk one up for the theists.

    Regards,

  47. ROTFL.

    Now how about Jesus = Jesus, which BTW you do not one shred of verifiable evidence for.

    LOL

    Therefore I claim victory by default, chaulk one up for the Atheist.

    I been busy past couple days and you “claim” victory BULLSHIT

  48. Nunya:

    We left off with my request for any reference to Horus being born in a cave.  You have not provided that.  In fact, you have failed to refer to any source documents for any of the alleged similarites. 

    If you insist on continuing, pick any of the alleged similarites in my original post, that I did not concede (royal birth, murder plots, miracles were conceded).  Pick just one.  With that one that you pick, back up that allegation with specific reference to a source document that substantiates that specific claim. 

    Also note, that for the purposes of this thread whether Jesus is real, whether the Bible is true, or whether Jesus is a copycat of any other sun god other than Horus are all immaterial. So let us not waste our time by bringing that into this thread.

    Regards,

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