Disbelief, dismay, anger, depression, numbness. I felt the same as many of you. And wondered what possessed so many Americans to vote for Bush against the better interests of the rest of the planet, the United States, and even of the Republicans in the bottom 98% income bracket. Aside from all questions of software manipulation, discarded ballots, challenged registrations, and divinely wrought chad hanging, quite a few voters did choose the Cowboy. Why?
There’s been no shortage of explanations in these posts and elsewhere—fundamentalist Christians, biased media, appeals to fear and xenophobia, simplicity of message—probably all of these are true to some extent, along with other factors, but they beg the question: Why are Americans so stupid? Why do they fall for these transparent ploys?
Now, don’t get me wrong: First of all, everyone’s stupid when it comes to politics and Americans are in good company there. And I don’t think Americans are genetically stupider than Europeans, or Africans, or anyone else. Jared Diamond does make a good case in Guns, Germs, and Steel for the superior intellect of the few surviving hunter-gatherers (he has worked for years in Papua New Guinea) who have been rigorously selected up to the present, unlike us well fed agriculturalist/couch potatoes, but probably the important differences are environmental.
Most Americans today do seem different from most Europeans, broadly speaking, Americans are more isolationist, less well-informed about politics and science, less interested in the fate of other nations, and more likely to hold absurd beliefs (astrology, alien abduction, virgin birth, Uri Geller…). The difference is not pronounced—people here (I live in Vienna) swallow all kinds of nonsense too—but no one I know here, from the Greens through the Socialist to the Freedom Party (sort of a neonazi neocon group), likes Bush and everyone (not just my Muslim friend) thinks the war in Iraq is an unmitigated disaster. Why the difference?
My suspicions: First of all, European countries are small, the US is big. Europeans have had to cope with many different neighbors, languages, and cultures for centuries. It’s easier for Americans to think that their nation is the whole world. Second, television. The average American watches more than four hours of TV a day, the average European about an hour less. Television sucks out your brain, especially the simplistic pap that passes for entertainment in the States. Third, Europeans walk more. Many of my friends, like myself, don’t even have cars. Driving around in a metal box and seeing the world through safety glass can lead one to think that it’s all just another TV program.
On the other hand, maybe the main difference is that the US is a major military power, and power corrupts. Americans are manipulated to support stupid wars because the powers that be need the oil, and can get it, through force of arms.
My comparison, anecdotal and undocumented as it is, is between the US and Europe because the standards of living and access to information are comparable—who can blame the Kokovoko Islanders for being superstitious?
Anyway, I’d like to hear your opinions on this.
Justin- I just got around to reading that Christopher Hitchens article, and. and, and, suddenly Bush makes sense! The liberals are going to be eating crow (if the Koran doesn’t forbid it) when Bin Laden is President! I’m gonna vote Republican for sure now!
Seriously- don’t you read any of these comments? Who here has said anything against pursuing Bin Laden and deposing the Taliban in Afghanistan (the article said not a word about Iraq)? Hitchens seems to think that liberals (and if he’s a liberal, I’m the Queen of Sheba) are apologists for Bin Laden! OK, there are a few idiots out there (Karlheinz Stockhausen comes to mind) who think 9/11 was a good deed. But he’s an idiot. I would be willing to bet a great deal that most Democrats don’t really like Bin Laden, or Sharia, or the Taliban. That still doesn’t make the invasion of Iraq a good idea.
And as for choosing between fundie flavors- the Christian sort hasn’t perhaps been as violent recently as the Muslim (barring the odd abortion clinic, but hey- no one’s perfect). Then again, nowadays the Christian fundies have much cushier lives on the whole (here in the pre-afterlife) than the Muslims, and can’t look forward to the 72 virgins promised the faithful in the Koran, just a harp and angel wings- hell, I know what I’d go for!- so they are probably less enticed by the joys of suicide bombing. I do like playing the harp, though, and if God were to tune it for me, I’d be tempted…
Grey, Daryl, Justin- tell us how invading Iraq is helping anyone except Bin Laden.
Regardless of what any of you say, I think Christians, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, and Buddhist (except for David Carradine) are all murderous dogs.
Religion is responisble for this big divide amongst the human populouses living here on Earth.
I think religion in all it’s facets is like poison. Just look at all the world wars we’re having, it’s by some remote circumstance that we are experiencing all this death and despair just because people worldwide disagree on things.
It’s because of crazy white people like you guys and the religions they’ve created that are destroying the world.
I wish we could live in world peace with all ethnicities, sexes, and various other backgrounds, but with crazy white people and their religions we are all doomed to a fate like the characters that played in Terminator 2: Judgement Day.
Peace.
Who the hell is “you guys”? Are you lost?
Yeah, Ben is definitely lost. Did you link here from a christian BLOG by accident. Delirious racists should refrain from speaking.
Hitchens was a liberal, and he was very prominant figure in liberal circles—until 9/11. Then he changed. That is probably the reason why he is so upset with the Left.
Hitchens seems to think that liberals (and if he’s a liberal, I’m the Queen of Sheba) are apologists for Bin Laden! OK, there are a few idiots out there (Karlheinz Stockhausen comes to mind) who think 9/11 was a good deed. But he’s an idiot. I would be willing to bet a great deal that most Democrats don’t really like Bin Laden, or Sharia, or the Taliban.
I completely agree with you, as does Christopher Hitchens. That is Hitchens’ central point—the disconnect between mainstream Democrats and the far left is hurting the party.
That still doesn’t make the invasion of Iraq a good idea.
There are a lot of Republicans that agree with you that Iraq was a mistake.
Ben, my only disagreement is that religions that destroy the world are not just the purview of crazy white guys.
There are some pretty murderous Asians and Africans out there too.
Oh yeah, and those bad-ass Incas. Don’t forget them.
Hey Ben- I agree that religion and crazy white people are responsible for a lot of the world’s problems, but that doesn’t tell us much about what anyone- religious or not, white or black or whatever, should do to make things better.
Sometimes I’m as cynical as you seem to be about our chances, but history teaches us that we can’t predict the future. And being optimistic, even though it may be irrational, is more fun than being pessimistic.
About David Carradine- I was in line behind him once at the Renaissance Faire years ago, and tried to talk to him, but he was pretty unfriendly. Maybe he’d just had enough of being polite to fans, though.
Peace to you too.
Listen, Chazzy666, I am not a racist (as some of you would like to believe).
I believe a racist has the power to invoke his or her’s hatred as a tool of impowerment.
And with that power, he or she is able to establish a means of brutalizing others socially, financially, physically and institutionally, and therefore make slaves or create schizms within the worldwide domain.
I’m a black man and it kills me everytime when all you hippies and delusional political freaks get into these big debates about America and the state of the world.
I just want to have world peace (especially when Half-lIfe 2 comes out and I’ll have plenty enough gallons of Mountain Dew and Chipotle burritos to keep me going sir).
Come to think of it, am I on the right message board? Do you guys play video games (Yar’s Revenge doesn’t count, hippies)?
Funny, since white guys didnt make any of those religions you just listed, with the possible exception of Catholicism, odd Ben from an alternate universe.
Ooh ooh and me! Don’t forget I called you a racist too, Ben!
Racist means prejudice from race.
That is what you are.
Justin- who are these “far left” types who are destroying the Democrats, who are apologists for Bin Laden? No one I know. I suspect they exist in the fevered imaginations of the Republicans, and in the image foisted on the Democrats by Karl Rove, Christopher Hitchens, and their ilk more than anywhere else.
And if lots of Republicans think Iraq was a mistake, why did they vote for Bush?
I think you guys and girls are all cool as hell.
But, when the 9-11 thing happened, you guys went crazy (just like when you guys killed the Natives) and went bonkers over there in the middle-east.
Shit, I’m even scared of you guys here in America and I think you guys might try to renact slavery or something (especially with that idiot president of ours George W. Bush in office).
It’s almost like I’m an alien fighting for his life on some barren, alien hostile enviornment (without any of the Soylent Green present).
Help me out.
Peace.
P.S.
Shana, you are definitely one cute (but crazy) white girl.
Kisses and hugs (if you’re not married).
Look, Ben. I didn’t kill ANY natives, since I WASN’T ALIVE.
I also protested the war in Iraq. I would never condone slavery and I would do every thing in my power to stop it.
So why are you blaming me?
I hope the next president is a women.
Because I think men in general are destroying the fucking planet. Let’s hope somebody like Susan Sarandon or Oprah decides to run in 2008.
Hell, why are all politicians old, rich, white dudes with nothing better to do than destroy the planet?
Let me know.
Peace.
Shana I apologize if I offended you.
And I didn’t mean to say that all white people are crazy, even though I said it in a jokingly manner.
I’m just mad because that asshole Bush won the election (I still think they rigged the whole thing in his favor).
I wish somebody like Kerry would’ve won, and hopefully end this war in Iraq (because I hate to see people on both sides die in a stupid crusade for oil).
And no, you didn’t kill the Natives (the pilgrims made sure of that).
And again please forgive me for acting like such a stupid idiot.
Sincerely,
Ben (not the Michael Jackson “Ben”).
No, no. I suspected you were up to something, Ben. But it was the you, you, you, and it’s so hard to tell on the interweb, made it difficult. Maybe if you had put Chris Rock up there instead of Ben, I would have caught on faster
You are not a stupid idiot, just a crazy black man.
Just be careful where you point that you, it’s a powerful weapon.
Thanks, Shana, I appreciate it.
Now I’m going to go play some Half-Life, sip some Mountain Dew, and listen to my George Carlin cds.
Five to one, baby
One in five
No one here gets out alive
Now, you get yours baby
I’ll get mine
We’re gonna make it baby if we try
P.S.
Jim Morrison is a genius, I wish he was alive. Because he would know what to say about all this brutal savageness.
Um, because fundies aren’t the sole determinant in quality of life. Because at this current time, America is not a theocracy and has enough of a beaurocracy in place to keep fundies from declaring a revolution. Because no one has been bombing American fundies’ houses and defaming their churches.
You are saying that if the “fundies” had even more political power, life in America would be the like life under the Taliban. The Left is bound and determined to ignore Hitchens’ advice.
Seems as if Ben needs some attention. He comes accross as intentionally trying to piss everyone off by being an uber racist and inflammatory. He just doesn’t seem real.
If I’m wrong I’m sorry.
ps. I didn’t say anything earlier, but there is no reason to call the French ‘froggies’. Maybe you were being sarcastic. Sometimes it can be hard to tell the mood of text.
“French frogs”. It’s an old stereotype. Nothing too offensive really. It’s mainly used by kids.
French frogs for the french and square heads for the english. In french, english = anglais, and in anglais you have the word angle and a square has angles. French kids also call or should I say use to call anglophones…..roastbeefs.
I am pretty sure “frogs” comes from the frog legs meal.
Like I said, It ain’t too offensive.
There is a kind of friendly rivalry between France and England. The same goes for Quebec against the rest of Canada. It’s no big thing.
I know I havent posted in a minute but, I finally got a second to sit down out of this crazy week.
Hey, listen, I am a republican, and I agree with being over in Iraq NOW. I do not think that we can pull out now, there would be american lives lost for no reason, there is no way we can do this,(as a republican I wanted to refrain from using this analogy) if we pull out now, this could turn out as another Vietnam. We are over there now and there is nothing we can do to change that now, because it would be BAD and purposeless. That would be the worst thing that we could do.
WOW! Shana you have had a lot of time on your hands. sorry I havent written in awhile, I’ve had way too much shit to do. I kinda missed the whole racial comment things, but I knew you could handle it,
, leave it to a female!
I think I may be done, gonna go post somewhere else for a minute.
This thread has become an effort in futility.
So, if the ‘fundies’ in America achieve more political power we will have more elements of a Taliban like environment. The only thing that prevents that from happening is clear thinking moderates.
Let’s talk about the “clear thinking moderates” because I think that gets us back to the heart of the debate. We have some fierce secularists in this thread and we have some fierce fundies in this thread. So if Democracy is doing it’s job, we both rely on the “clear thinking moderates” to chose the best side, and that is the side that wins. The problem for the Democrats, which Hitchens has articulated nicely, is that those “clear thinking moderates” are siding with the fundies on the right and not the apologists on the left.
Which brings us full circle: How can Americans be so stupid? Those clear thinking moderates were supposed to vote for Kerry!
No, it brings us half-circle. There simply aren’t enough clear thinking moderates to offset the ignorant, entrenched and befuddled masses.
If you’ll look at the recent history of the Republican party, they have developed a very focused message, leaving many Americans out of the picture. Now, the challenge the democrats have is appealing to the whole of that disparate majority. It’s somewhat like a three party system with only two parties.
It’s still amazes my that educated Christians bought in to Bush’s propaganda. I don’t think it’s so much the work of the republican campaign per se, as it is the churches themselves.
If the fundies take away my access to birth control pills, my right to free speech (or perhaps that’s just a Bush thing with the patriot acts), the rights of gays to marry, force me to pray in school and say the god pledge of allegiance, what’s next? Mandatory church services? That’s a slippery slope, my friend.
“So if Democracy is doing it’s job, we both rely on the “clear thinking moderates
Daryl- still out there, or did we scare you off?
Grey- do you think invading Iraq was a good idea, and if so, why? If not, why did you vote for the clown who got us there? Does he have any other selling points I don’t know about?
Nicki- I agree, simply pulling out of Iraq now would leave a terrible mess. I’m not sure we will make things any better by staying, however. At this point anything we do is going to be painful for everyone involved, and even with the best will and intelligence, the outcome is unpredictable. What is predictable, however, is that if we don’t learn from this, we’ll get into more trouble.
Your argument that if we pull out now, the war would have been “bad and purposeless”, and “there would be American lives lost for no reason”, has a familiar ring. We were told the same thing about Vietnam, and we stayed and stayed, and more and more lives were lost, and it was still bad and purposeless. What did it achieve, other than the Rambo flics? I hope I don’t have to remind anyone what happened there, although some conservatives still seem to think the Vietnam war (aka “the trillion dollar rathole”) was a good idea. I don’t know enough about Iraq to say what we should do there now, but a good starting point would be to not vote for the idiots who got us in there.
deadscot- what you said. This brings us full-circle back to my original post, where I wondered how the Americans could be duped by such simplistic thinking. Complex ideas about a complex world are, disappointingly for an optimistic appraisal of human intelligence, a hard sell compared to what fundamentalists of all stripes, be they Christian, Muslim, Right, Left, or whatever, offer us. Sure, we must make choices and adopt platforms that we know are imperfect, or we’ll never do anything. But if we start to believe that our worldview is simply the way things are, and stop looking and listening, there’s little hope for us.
shana- Amen. Sorry your father has it so tough. I think your insight about his situation hits the nail on the head, and helps explain why Bush won, and the appeal of demagogues everywhere (here in Austria too, although at least they don’t have the Bomb).
Because people are begging the Many Questions?
Saying they inflict plurium interrogationum on themselves just doesn’t have the same ring to it
elwed- no, but it has a nice rhythm to it. I would add “illegitimi non carborundum” to that, but my classicist friends tell me it’s not authentic.
*chuckle*, no, not much scares me off. That “Ben” guy showed up and started veering off into the whole “ok-to-hate-white-men” B.S., and the thread got a lot less interesting. 14 year olds will do that.
As far as “pulling out now”, it isn’t an option. Even a lot of people who were dead-set against going to Iraq will admit that.
A failed Iraqi state would leave a power vacuum to be filled by the most violent, dangerous Imams and religious fanatics in the world. Right now people like al-Zaqawi are on the run: if the US left Iraq, they would be setting up virtual countries to plot the destruction of Western Civilization.
“As it is, the US cannot stay and it cannot go.”
I like the way you put that, elwed. I believe the US has the responsibility to stay and see the job through since they started it. But the problem is that Bush doesn’t know how/have a plan to see it through. It’s ridiculous. He’s like an overly domesticated cat who’s killed a mouse but doesn’t know what to do with it.
One can see how hell bent Islamic fundamentalists are by changing the following from:
To: A stable Iraqi state would create a new outreach for American religious fanatics. If the US remains in Iraq they will be setting up virtual countries to plot the destruction of Eastern Civilization.
I agree that we can’t entirely pull US forces out of region at this time. We should never have been there in the first place, but now that we are, we need to begin to develop a smart exit strategy. The only way I can foresee that happening is by us eating a little crow and passing up on some of our pork barrel contracts. Other countries may then be tempted to participate in the region as a police and rebuilding force while the US pulls out.
The point Bush seems to be overlooking is stability vs. victory. ‘We must win and we must have it all for ourselves.’ With that mindset, we’ll be debating Iraq well into the next decade.
“If the US remains in Iraq they will be setting up virtual countries to plot the destruction of Eastern Civilization.”
What Eastern civilization? Theocratic dictatorships propped up by oil money? Medievalist Imams who decry modern medicine? Terrorists?
The most modern country in the mid east is Dubai, and they seem to have got it right: they’re planning for the post-oil economy and inviting the world in to join the party. Turkey isn’t doing too badly – they’re lucky enough not to have oil money.
Not that I think we should go stomping all over the world forcing people to adopt Western ways, but the Islamic world doesn’t exactly have a lot to brag about.
The sad thing is that Islam, as little as I know about it, can actually be a very beautiful religion (gee, just as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and others all have that ability…). During Europe’s Dark Ages, people enjoyed an incredible amount of freedom—possibly more than in any society up to that point. Women included. So it’s not a ridiculous supposition that Islam can be a good faith.
Similarly, I think that there is a capacity for peace in Iraq. Perhaps you have the right idea, deadscot, that the US should let other countries step in and pick up the pieces. But I think that we still have to provide some kind of support for this, either in money (yikes!) or troops (also yikes!, but maybe far less troops). I agree that we need to drop the contracts, since they just prove the suspicion that Bush went over there for his own interests. But if we back out entirely, we’ll be those really big assholes who left other people to do our dirty work.
I don’t think we should discount Islam too much. It may be from Islam that the Iraqi people can find the strength to pull their country together in a peaceful way to set an example for the rest of that area. I’m not advocating a theocracy, here. Just that people reclaim their religion from the fundies that have run amok with it. Of course, that’s not for us to say or do…but I can dream, can’t I?
Some points that are making me twitch:
The flypaper theory (aka “We have to fight them in Iraq so we don’t fight them here”).
Why not in Afghanistan then? I won’t speak for anyone else here, But Bush had my 100% support when we decided to hunt Al Qaeda and topple the Taliban. Hell, if Bush had smoked bin Laden first, and then decided Saddam was the next prick to go… I think he would have had much more support. Priorities man, priorities!
I don’t recall one Right Winger giving a shit about the oppressed Iraqi people and expressing a desire to Liberate” them until the WMD argument fell apart. (I’ve checked a lot of blogs, and never seen it mentioned *ONCE* until that became the excuse).
Christian fundies -vs- Islamic fundies Bombing school buses with Israeli children or sending anthrax to pro-choice politicians and “liberal newspapers”… which is worse? (Whatever happened to that guy, anyway?). Another thing we missed was Dr. James (“Focus on the Family”)Dobson’s antics of publishing Michael Moore’s home address for people to “pay him a visit” *wink* nudge*.
I personally don’t see the difference between the two when extremists are involved.
Bush/Hitler thing – It was irresponsible. Simple and plain. Just as dumb as comparing Saddam to Hitler. I understood where the left were coming from (think Germany 1938, not 1945 “The Reichstagg, the sweeping patiotism, the propaganda”). The delivery was poor and left a bad taste in everyone’s mouths with the over-the-top hysteria.
Hitler is simply a lesson that one man should never get too powerful. End of story.
This thread kicks ass. I am learning so much… thanks Zilch & Les (& everyone else)
Daryl- Welcome back. I’m still waiting (trying not to sound like a broken record) for a response from you about my critique of your “Europe is dying” post.
And about Iraq: I don’t think anyone can forsee what will happen if we stay, or if we pull out- what coalesces out of such a mess is, as history shows us, unpredictable. I certainly don’t know what the best thing to do is at this point. But what I do believe is this: Bush and Co. got us into this, and that was a tragic mistake- as I have said, Bush is Bin Laden’s best recruiter. Al-Zaqawi and his ilk were soapbox preachers until the US provided an enemy for them. And the terrorist indoctrination centers the US has provided, at Guantanamo and Abu Graib, are doing a bang-up job of inspiring wannabe suicide bombers.
Sentiments along the line of “well, maybe we shouldn’t have started this fight in the first place, but now we’ve got to make sure we win, or they will win and that will be the end of Western Civilization”, should sound familiar, at least to people of my age (54). This is the Rambo argument, and we don’t seem to have learned anything at all from its failure.
The way to fight Bin Laden, IMHO, is:
a) to pursue him directly- admittedly, a difficult task. I can’t really blame Bush for not getting him, although we would have had a much better chance if we had concentrated our efforts there and not gone into Iraq.
b) to not provide him with martyrs- something at which Bush has failed miserably.
c) to make terror less attractive to the masses by being helpful, with humantarian aid- also not a long suit of the US administration. Our history of supplying arms to whoever suits our current needs is largely responsible for this mess, and others. The Americans seem to have forgotten that Saddam was our best friend for a long time. The Iraqis have not forgotten.
Shana, deadscot, DoF, elwed: yes, yes, yes. Hope I’m not being too sycophantic, but it’s like a drink of cool water to participate in a discussion with you all.
-=e=- thanks for being here. I’m learning buckets too. Three cheers for Les, too.
One last thought about the Hitler-Bush comparison thing. I agree, Bush is not Hitler. I’m in a fairly good position to compare them, at least in some ways (I’m not a historian), since I live in Hitler’s native country, and have had occasion to see films of both him and Bush and understand them in their native languages.
Difference one: Hitler was a lot more intelligent than Bush. His speeches (I should say rants), although he was a deranged psychopath, were at least logical and grammatical. I don’t quite understand Hitler’s appeal, because he was so obviously crazy, but I guess you had to be there. My wife’s uncle (Waffen SS officer) still thinks he was the cat’s pajamas.
Difference two: Bush is a lot nicer than Hitler. I am glad Bush is president and not Hitler (or Cheney, for that matter- or is Cheney the real president?)
One thing they have in common: a talent for surrounding themselves with likeminded underlings, most if not all of whom are more intelligent and/or more devious than they themselves.
I agree, comparing Buch to Hitler is facile. But even if America is nothing like Nazi Germany, and is in little danger of becoming so, we can still learn from history (think more in terms of 1923 than 1938). The curtailing of civil liberties does not bode well.
On the Hitler thing, I think the word that comes to my mind is opportunism. Both Bush and Hitler are/were huge opportunists with lots of charisma for a flailing public.
Dude, are we still even looking for bin Laden? I haven’t heard a thing about him from the news lately.
Shana, excellent points, all. The other difference is that American terrorists have only a very, very small base of support in the population, because everyone is living relatively comfortably here. If more of the country secretly supported them, they’d be a LOT more widespread, dangerous, and effective.
Terrorism Q&A – An excellent site. Kind of ties in with what Zilch and Shana were saying.
One thing I do agree with what the left and right have been saying all along: This IS a different kind of war. There is a real threat, and we need to eliminate it from its roots.
Nothing gives me a bigger headache than hearing the lame ass “They hate us for our freedom” crap. It is no where near as simplistic as that.
In the list Shana put out, each one had a different motivation for what they did… but they had one thing in common: DESPERATION. The perpetrators saw this as a “David and Goliath” struggle against an enemy they KNOW they can’t beat face to face.
In the case of the Dylan and Kliebold (Columbine), you can feel bad for what they went through in school. But they took it to such an extreme that it’s impossible for a civilized mind to feel any sympathy for them afterward.
Groups like Al Qaeda & Hamas are run by very rich and organized people who reach out to the poor and hopeless. Fill their heads with propaganda, half-truths, and a purpose (just like a cult).
What if WE were to give these recruits a reason to live and a sense of purpose instead?
Don’t the insurgents in Iraq and the suicide bombers in the West Bank know they are in a no-win situation? Of course they do. If they cut their crap, someone is willing to work with them and address their grievances… they know this, yet they continue. Why? Is it a trust problem with the West? Is what they’re demanding REALLY what they want? Are the scars of the past too deep?
This is the stuff we need to know. How can we fight an enemy when we don’t understand why they’re fighting? When we say “fight to the death”, are we talking about exterminating the entire Arab poplulation?
And with what Shana was driving at.
Yes. From the Unibomber to Columbine to Timothy McVeigh. We saw them as nutjobs whose actions didn’t justify their cause.
Like GeekMom pointed out we’re comfortable in our lifestyles. We all have our opinions about school bullying, Waco and abortion… but they’re not strong enough for us to go out and blow up a building or hit a subway with Sarin gas over.
I don’t know about anybody else, but I’m more concerned with keeping my job and paying my mortgage than starting a damn revolution.
I guess I was premature in welcoming Daryl back. I’m still hoping to hear from him, and Grey, and Justin, about my questions, but I guess I shouldn’t hold my breath.
Speaking of stupid- I heard recently that the country with the highest number of civil suits per capita is…. Austria! A fair number of those suits have to do with Gartenzwerge (garden dwarves). Maybe that’s why the Austrians aren’t fighting any foreign wars…
Typical far-left “statistic” which is completely unsupported by the facts. The U.S. GDP per capita is $37,800. Europe’s varies depending on which countries you include, but it’s between $25,300 (EU25) and $27,600 (just the EU15). That’s ten to twelve thousand dollars more for each American.
Now, the U.S. defense budget for FY 2003 was $370 billion. That’s a bit on the “high” side because there’s a war on, but let’s just use it. $370 billion works out to $1,260 per American, spent on defense. So, even if Europe spends not one dime on any military at all, they’re still $9,000 to $11,000 behind their American counterparts—per person.
As far as never seeing homeless people, despite unemployment rates of 10% to 25%.. Well, no one ever accused Europe of not having a social safety net. In the long run, it’s not good for society as a whole if your government assumes Nanny duties. “Don’t worry, Europe, no matter how lazy and unwilling to work you are, you’ll never be homeless. We’ll take money from those who do work, and make sure you have a place to sit on the couch all day.” Yuck.
How to respond to this? At no other point in history would someone ask “so what”. It’s a strange thing, this idea that a culture is going to simply decide to go extinct.
“So what”? Well, if you don’t want you great-great-granddaughters wearing the Bhurka or being thrown in prison for missing afternoon prayers, you are going to have to assimilate the Muslims flooding the EU right now. You’re going to have to impress on Muslim culture some foreign ideas like “Separation of Church and State”, and “Individual Rights”. Let me clue you into a little secret: there’s very little incentive for Muslims to assimilate into a culture which is voluntarily going extinct.
Well, this intermingling of cultures can be a good thing when the minority culture gets assimilated and the majority culture co-opts what’s good about the minority. That process made the United States the most powerful nation in the history of the world.
In Europe, on the other hand, the “culture collision” leads to things like Malmø, Sweden. Things like arranged marriage. Things like Dutch filmmakers being shot and stabbed to death in broad daylight for “offending Islam”.
Daryl- Thanks for replying. Here we go:
1) You seem not to have understood my point: I said that while American GNP per capita is higher than European, the Americans spend more of theirs on the military and making the rich richer, and therefore have less left over for other things.
You haven’t rebutted this at all, merely repeated what I already said: the Americans have more money. Apparently, per capita income (a typical “far right statistic”) is the only factor important to you in assessing quality of life. The other factors I mentioned, the “trifles” of decent schools, public transportation,environment, you obviously don’t consider worthy of consideration.
Admittedly, it’s difficult to compare quality of life between cultures. But I will take the good schools, the public transportation, the safe streets (want to compare crime rates between Europe and the US? Be my guest), the environmental concern, and above all the lack of will to engage in senseless wars (here I mean the EU- Eastern Europe has been pretty senseless too recently, although not world-endangering) over the gated communities, the skyrocketing prison population, the unaffordable health care, the fast food culture and the concommitant millions spent fighting obesity…. I don’t mean to sound anti-American. I still think of myself as American, and I’m still an American citizen (mostly so I can vote against the idiocy over there- my vote here is not as important gliobally). Americans can be proud of many things- their openness, their innovativeness, and yes, their engagement in protecting freedom and democracy around the world. But these qualities are being engulfed in a tide of apathy and greed, largely directed by a small minority to further their own religious and/or financial agendas.
2) and 3) Lower population growth is strongly correlated worldwide with higher education. Muslims who live here get a better education than where they came from. And as far as impressing foreign ideas on Muslim culture, they have to accept our ideas of individual rights (separation of church and state is a complex issue here) when they immigrate, because that’s the law, and they are subject to it like anyone else. You’ve given no evidence that European culture is dying, just “typical far right” scare scenarios. As I said, I live here and don’t see it.
And as to your last remark: “Well, this intermingling of cultures can be a good thing when the minority culture gets assimilated and the majority culture co-opts what’s good about the minority. That process made the United States the most powerful nation in the history of the world.
In Europe, on the other hand, the “culture collision
And Daryl- you said, in response to my point about the number of homeless in America vs. Europe:
“As far as never seeing homeless people, despite unemployment rates of 10% to 25%.. Well, no one ever accused Europe of not having a social safety net. In the long run, it’s not good for society as a whole if your government assumes Nanny duties. “Don’t worry, Europe, no matter how lazy and unwilling to work you are, you’ll never be homeless. We’ll take money from those who do work, and make sure you have a place to sit on the couch all day.
And as I already pointed out, this claim is demonstrably false. Americans make about $11,000 more than Europeans per year. They spend about $1,200 per year on their military. That means that even if you consider the $1,200 completely wasted, and even if Europeans spent nothing on defense—not a dime—Americans still have $10,000 more left over every year, after paying for their larger military.
*chuckle* try telling them that. They will take advantage of your “separation of Church and State” for as long as they’re in the minority. Once they’re in the majority, you can forget about it.
Good for her. Make sure she doesn’t speak up against Radical Islam, like this woman did.
Daryl- Ok let’s try again, although this is getting a little repetitious. Quote: “I said that while American GNP per capita is higher than European, the Americans spend more of theirs on the military and making the rich richer, and therefore have less left over for other things.” I didn’t say that the European per capita GNP was higher after military expenditure. I said they had more money to spend on other things after military expenditures and making the rich richer. Nowhere did I say that the average European makes more money than the average American. They differ in how they spend their money, and you haven’t responded to that at all.
And you say: “*chuckle* try telling them that. They will take advantage of your “separation of Church and State
Case in point – Germany is one of the more secular European nations, but I invite to look up Article 7 of the German constitution.
There’s nothing to respond to. Look, Americans, on average, are $10,000 more productive than their European counterparts—even after they “waste” money on their big Army. At this point, the burden of proof is on you, zilch. My claim was that “Europe is poor” compared to the United States, and I haven’t seen any refutations as yet.
Let’s start with the basics, and work from there. This is going to be a rather foreign thought process, if you’re used to arguing based on emotion rather than facts and logic. So let’s start simply. You say the Europeans have “more money to spend on other things”—your own words.
How much more money, exactly? You seem so sure that you’re right, and money is about the most quantifiable thing in existence. Daryl claims that Europeans actually have about $10,000 less per year, and you seem to think he’s wrong, and that Europeans actually have more. So tell us, how much do they have? You give us a number, and we’ll go from there.
Why the entry in the’third person’? Emotional disturbance or group effort?