I’d like to ask everyone who’s upset over Bush winning re-election to pause for a moment, take a deep breath, and just try to relax. For the past 24 hours or so far too many Liberals have been running around as though hot nuclear death were raining down from the sky and they only had minutes remaining to be someplace else very far away. More than a few people have emphatically stated their intentions to move to another country and I’m sure more than a few of you are deadly serious about it. Quite a few others are wasting energy on being angry, depressed, worried, bitter, melancholy, or what have you and often times more than one of those emotions at once. In short, a lot of us are being not just reactionary, but over-reactionary to this development. Yes, I think a lot of us are overreacting and not thinking this through with a clear head like we should be.
For starters, nothing has really changed yet. America didn’t suddenly become a theocracy when Kerry called Bush and conceded. None of Bush’s goals in his agenda suddenly became a foregone conclusion with his reelection. The Bill of Rights wasn’t set alight and outlawed the moment Bush gave his victory speech. But you might think all of those things had happened if you were to judge us simply by how we’ve reacted. The truth is America still has a long way to go before our worst fears become reality and the worst thing we could do that would help ensure those fears come to pass is to throw our hands up in frustration or flee like scared rabbits.
Let’s address the option some folks are considering of moving out of the country. Canada seems to be a popular choice for a lot of folks who are seriously considering leaving mainly due to its more left-leaning government and populace. Canada is certainly willing to take you on, but you’ll have to get in line with everyone else who’s trying to move there from other countries. Word has it that legal immigration to Canada can take upwards of a year and then it’s another three years before you can become a full citizen. You could move in ahead of schedule if you manage to land a job there first and that’ll require a work permit, which is still a good four to six months in the future if you apply today. As long as you’re waiting you may as well ask yourself a few questions starting with, ‘Do I really think this means I’m leaving the problems in America behind?’ Consider that for a moment: For better or worse, America is the most powerful nation on the planet. If we were all to give up and abandon ship leaving the country to the right-wingers to do with as they please, how long do you think it would be before you once again started to feel the impact of that decision? If the Dominionists succeed in their goal of reshaping America into a true “Christian Nation” as they envision it, do you really think they’re going to be happy with that and leave the rest of the world alone? We’ve already read about how their goal is, quite literally, world domination. Imagine an America reshaped and run by these people. Do you honestly think you’d be safe anywhere on the planet with them in control back here?
For those of you who are busy panicking over this development you should be asking yourself, ‘How does this help the situation?’ The short answer is: It doesn’t. At best it’s a waste of energy and at worst it confirms everything the opposition believes is true about us. It also tends to feed on itself as it’s difficult to think clearly when you’re busy overreacting and we end up falling back on some of the very tendencies we take Conservatives to task for such as black and white thinking. Caught up in our own emotions we resort to knee-jerk reactions and lose sight of some very important facts.
For example, take a look at this USA Today map that breaks down how each county in each state voted into either Red of Blue. If you’re a Liberal then you probably find the sight of that map a bit depressing, but does it really say anything other than a particular county was won by one side or the other? No, it’s a simple binary depiction that gives you no indication how close the race in any particular county might have been and if you do some searching you’ll probably find that the race in many areas was very close.
Consider Oakland County, Michigan where Kerry got 319,607 votes and Bush got 316,567 making for a 50% to 49% win for Kerry with a mere 3040 votes difference. Now contrast that with Alpena County, Michigan where Bush scored 7,665 votes to Kerry’s 7,406 making for another 50% to 49% win for the other side with only 259 votes separating them. More importantly take a look at Michigan as a whole in that CNN county-by-county breakdown that colors the counties based on how strongly they allied with one side or the other. By my count there were at least 16 counties that were so close as to not show a hint of either red or blue and there were only a handful of counties that could be considered to be strongly on one side or the other. Looking at the other states you’ll find a couple that were mostly blue-tinted such as Massachusetts and a couple that were mostly red-tinted such as Oklahoma, but in a lot of them you’ll find that there’s an awful lot of white counties where it could easily have gone either way and even more counties where support one way or the other was just barely enough to give the state any tint at all. If we were to apply this graduated concept to a map of how the states voted you might end up with a map like this one over at BoingBoing.net which has an awful lot of purple on it.
That’s the effect of those moderates we keep forgetting about that make up a good portion of the population. People like ***Dave who tend to lean liberal, but still has some consevative aspects to his nature as well. I think ***Dave is a good representative of the moderate viewpoint in part because of his entries dealing with his struggle to decide which candidate he was going to vote for. I take comfort in the fact that when I look at those maps that provide a graduated scale showing how strong one county or another happened to be for either side that the majority of them could be open to persuasion and a well reasoned argument to go the other way next time.
It’s important in times like this that we are level-headed enough to look for what the reality is as opposed to what we fear it might be. Just as the majority of Christians aren’t far-right Fundamentalist assholes, not everyone who voted for Bush is a die-hard Conservative who is beyond all reasoning with. It’s easy to forget this because we generally tend to get into arguments with the folks who ARE those things as opposed to the moderates. It’s also important to remember that we argue with them not because we foolishly think we’ll change their minds, but because we’re hoping our reasoning will resonate with the folks who are open to considering other viewpoints. If we just throw up our hands in frustration and feel sorry for ourselves, though, then we will end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy. We can sit around and pout and point fingers at what age groups we had pinned our hopes on that didn’t show up or how 51% of the nation must be clueless morons or any of a dozen other excuses we can dream up. Or we can take a deep breath, take a critically honest look at ourselves, our message, and our situation and then move forward determined not to let this setback crush our spirits. The only constant is change and even the darkest days eventually give way to better times.
neodromos. If your list names the 1,100 or so dead officially reported by the Pentagon, it doesn’t under-reports the actual number of deaths due to combat. The Pentagon doesn’t report the number of soldiers who die in hospital. (I’m not exactly sure where they draw the line.) I have heard that the number is closer to 3,000.
Adam, it’s called humor – deal with it.
I am an old guy and friend were going to Nam and not coming back. I watched as the Gov. beat and killed in the name of protecting a way of life, those artists and fredom fighters of the sixties. The musicians that came by untimely deaths. I have walked across the street from a school under siage to see as far as the eye could see, uniformed officers in full riot gear and kids I saw each day shot down because they believed it was time to stop the machine. In the early seventys I pumped gas and had a man come in to the station where I was a gas jockey and inform me he had just got out of a long tearm planning meeting as a Union Oil Executive and lay down all the plans of the oil companys including the wars and pricing because he was angree about our future. I have know, and spoken,and fought for years. Those that layed down their lives for our country are doing it because they believed in an America. They believed in an economy that feeds or familys. That economy is oil. We have new Technologies that negate the need for the oil base economy. That is where I feel the need for change. We could be on the road to a new world but NO!. Just like in 1976’ the auto industries looked the other way and gave our nations manufacturing away. How about our banks? We do not have a word bank. Bush sees a sinking ship and he is going clean out the tresure box before its breached if he can. The fight is not over till I am dead. The orginazation is the key. The building and structure. He know he has only four more years and by the end of that time he will have shown his face. His power is great but that croupts and he is sloppy. This we have seen. It just must be better revealed.
How ‘bout a map of the Civil War? Look familiar?
We should have let the fuckers go!
Maybe ‘ol Abe wasn’t such a great president after all, eh?
Now that’s funny!
Sorry Les, I guess I’m being “anti-topic” – I’ll stop that.
krrj – the drama is killing me!!
i am sensing the ‘those stoopid idiots ruined my life’ syndrome picking up steam here. i think i’ll bow out now and let you agree with each other on how idiotic half the country is.
hasta
I think I started making the argument that the North actually lost the Civil War at about the time that Bush was elected to his first term.
I’ve pictured that map in my head before, Spocko; it’s funny—in a ‘hurts so bad ya gotta laugh’ kind’a way.
I don’t know. I think if you hang out a bit longer someone will eventually take the time to make a rational response to the questions you posed.
In the meantime, don’t be surprised by the jokes—humor’s a pretty effective way of dealing with pain. (The alternative is scary, and often involves climbing bell-towers with high-powered firearms).
What if we gave a war and nobody came? The alpha male, hunter-gatherer syndrome seems to be alive and kicking, at least in many of the younger generation. Perhaps it’s the herd instinct for survival – kill off the weak ones or the herd will perish. My son is a sergeant in the Marine Corps and his dream is to become an L.A. City cop in south-central Los Angeles. For the foreseeable future some of our youngsters want to be in a “kill-or-be-killed” situation. Lets hope that, until we really want to live peacefully, those wars will be limited ones that affect the smallest part of the world’s population and give these kids an outlet. As the protest to the Vietnam War has shown, if the people really want to, they can make the leaders listen and change policy. Maybe we can begin to develop a peace-oriented culture? Hey, stranger things have happened!
BTW, Spocko, great maps.
Crazyrepublican,
“After my initial victory jig (in another post, cannot remember what thread id it was), the enormity of the situtation really hit – there are 50M+ people in this country that are pissed off/disillusioned/devastated over the results – what kind of country is that? While you guys don’t agree with my political/economic/social views, I am curious as to what realistic things can be done to unify this country.”
What DOF said and a little dialogue about humanism. Any time you make something (God, Allah, money, oil) more sacred than a human being, you diminish the value of humans and humanity. Lets start looking at those conditions that will allow each of us to become the best we can be without trampling on the rights of others and lets start fighting (politically) to make our government support those conditions. All we are saying is GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.
Brock, I actually burst out laughing in front of my computer when I read that you remembered the”ketchup incident”. As of late, I’ve been going to art school, where it seems the aforementioned incident could easily be considered a valid installation project. To be specific, I’ve been in Boston, attending college at the School of the Museum of Fine Arts. So not only was I here when the Sox won the World Series, but I was also here when Kerry had his big pep rally down at Copley center. Needless to say, I probably had all the more reason to be shocked that he lost. I kinda wish Kerry’s concession were delivered at night, so at least there’d be a riot or something.
But on another note: is anybody else getting the impression that Keith Radford is Al Sharpton under a different alias? He seems to have the same tendency to go off emotionally on subject matter that he can’t articulate in any comprehensive, objective manner. Kinda like a stream of conciousness, just without the sporadic brilliance. But I guess I’m being a tad mean, no?
And I really hate it when that kind of rambling discussion discourages the debate of a pompous little crapper like crazyrepublican. Because damn it, people that staunch should KNOW they’re wrong (though the day may never be).
Heh heh, Jesusland…
Just a few things that repulse me…
a) Taking presidency when losing the popular vote. (first time around anyway)
b) Selling out to corporations.
c) Trying to appoint the same judge a year after he was rejected by the Democrats.
d) Sickening use of religion for political gain.
e) Silly “holier than thou” smirk on that face of his.
f) Say “atheists should not be considered citizens” (ok – that was his daddy)
a) Don’t do any of the above!
b) Bush should learn to admit mistakes.
c) Reach out to those that DON’T “share our goals”.
d) Put Roe v Wade to bed. Repubs should quit trying to impose their beliefs on others. Noone is forced to have an abortion and Democrats are NOT pro-abortion they support the rights of the individual to make thier own moral decisions and not have “morality”, a very subjective term, embedded in our law.
e) Don’t act like you won by a landslide!
f) Fix the goddamn voting methods used in this country.
g) Limit a lawyer’s take of the pie but don’t limit a patient’s right to sue those quacks that cause real harm.
g) Repeal tax cuts for folks making shitloads of money!
h) Pay off our debts! We can’t keep using the “credit card”! I thought you conservatives were supposed to be good with money stuff. I heard we’re paying something like 3 or 4 million bucks an hour in interest alone!
i) Fire all lobbyists. Permanently.
a) Moore is not a Democrat and I ignore the “false” parts of his movie and concentrate on that which was true.
b) I actually like Al Sharpton, tho I’m partial to those with a sense of humor. He was great on SNL!
c) Dennis K is one funny little mother fucker!
d) Considering the fact that I’m not a Democrat I would have done things differently, but in this silly, two-party, black & white, system who would have noticed?
As to the original topic of this thread, I’ve “enhanced my calm” by tuning out! I’ve been way too absorbed in this shit the last few years – hours of “news” stations, radio, papers, the net, you name it. I’ve restricted my “news” watching to about 5 minutes total since “Black Tuesday/Wednesday”. I have noticed that my blood pressure has fallen back to normal and I sleep better at night. I’m also going to tune out those ridiculous religious channels that have been invading my tube. Sometimes I watch ‘em just for kicks and end up totally disgusted and steamin’ mad at the sheer lunacy of this whole religion deal. It never ceases to amaze me how gullible a bunch of monkeys we still are and at the same time I’m not surprised at all.
With all this free time I guess I’ll catch up with my reading, I’ve been reading “The Circus of Dr. Lao”. This book was made into a movie called “The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao” starring Tony Randall in seven different roles. I loved that movie when I was a kid and it’s interesting to read the original work. There’s quite a bit they left out of the movie that’s kinda nasty or would have been too difficult to create on film I guess, tho the fx were pretty cool for its time.
I’ll tune back in to the political circus in a couple of years (maybe). I know, I’m just sticking my head in the sand but the air kinda stinks.
oops I guess I’m rambling…
Crazyrepublican, several people did make an honest attempt to respond to your original question about why the country was so divided. Not everyone, true, but discussions are like a multi-body orbit problem; the orbit changes if one body is absent (in this case, you.)
Were you really interested in discussing the problem of division or were you just trying to make yourself look reasonable before an exit? I thought your questions were good and worth discussing.
My high school days back in 69’ the country was divided. The though was war. the concern was morality vs. right and wrong.
In my humble opinion it has taken our government this long to disguised and sell the morality issue in regards to oil war as morally correct stance in America.
The issues are not about right and wrong any more but are they moral. The tacking of policy has shifted to the point of unbalanced lawmaking and foreign relations. By use of a value system that works for the half of the nation that see things in moral light there is a black and white, evil and good with no measure of right and wrong. Right and wrong leaves room for measure or degree of measure with no fence as it were to fall off of form one side to the next. Seeing things in right and wrong allows for the mercy of the law to unfold and measure.
This is a fundamental in the separation.
Keith,
The increase in the “fundie vote” was not as great as many on the Left (myself included) would like to believe. Certainly not enough to account for Bush’s victory. David Brooks takes a look at the statistics in a NYT op-ed piece.
While there is certainly a lot of division in this country over hyped-up moral issues, there is also a big group of swing voters that are motivated by more diverse and subtle factors. The Democrats clearly need to do a better job of reaching out to these people if they want to succeed.
Along w/ crazy republican, given the moral outrage I’ve read against what y’all consider unjust reasons for war & “giving in” to corporations (by allowing them to buy & sell at only quadruple the tax rate of the rest of us) that are guilty of corruption until proven innocent-
I wonder, where is the moral outrage demanding an investigation into charges that Kofi Annan, France, Russia & Germany for taking oil from Saddam in exchange for votes in the U.N. so he could corruptly continue to pocket the money, spilling the blood of thousands, maybe millions of Iraqis who dared have the wrong ethnicity?
I know that I’m biased in that I’m more likely to believe the innocence of an American Corporation over Saddam Hussein or European corporations & governments failing miserably to cloak their Anti-Semitism, while your biases may be for what some have referred to our “traditional allies,” but do any of you see ANY similarity between the corruption of Enron & the French, German & Russian corporations? Or even see it as MILDLY suspicious that Kofi Annan has refused an investigation unless the Iraqi people (who are the alleged victims) pay for it?
Well, it seems that the Republicans were all along trying to appeal to the most gullible, surefire voting base – conspiracy theorists! If you want to get fucking dirty with business deals, look into Halliburton and the Bush family themselves, and tell me that ANY of these people are moral.
Are we supposed to fight villains with villains now? Seems reeaaaally wrong to me.
How ironic! My word thingy is “consider”. HA!
Ah yes, another wonderful posting of half truths and distortions by Ellie. What would we ever do without her?
Here chew on these for a while
http://www.newsfrombabylon.com/article.php?sid=2621
http://www.newsfrombabylon.com/article.php?sid=3402
http://www.rense.com/general44/deaad.htm
http://www.rense.com/general32/charged.htm
http://www.rense.com/general32/bhh.htm
http://www.fortbendstar.com/Archives/2003_4q/122403/n_Woman who filed lawsuit found dead.htm
http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/03-21-04/discussion.cgi.73.html
http://www.unknownnews.net/cache18.html
http://www.drizzten.com/blargchives/000130.html
http://fp.enter.net/~haney/jt112203-2.htm
http://www.global-elite.org/print.php?sid=205
http://treasononline.blogspot.com/2003_11_09_treasononline_archive.html
http://www.retortmagazine.com/content/06.04/id_article_ponziny.htm
http://ez-websites.com/grudge/
http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/03-21-04/discussion.cgi.72.html
http://www.bartcop.com/
http://www.independent-media.tv/gtheme.cfm?ftheme_id=24&fdate_posted=%7Bts ’2003-11-14 00:00:00’%7D
http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=3058&fcategory_desc=Under Reported
http://www.disinfotainmenttoday.com/issue32.htm
http://www.oilempire.us/bush.html
http://www.disinfotainmenttoday.com/issue79.htm
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/12/48880.html
http://www.drmenlo.com/archive/2003_11_09_archive.html
http://www.rense.com/general47/bushsmitten.htm
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread64757/pg1
http://www.blackopradio.com/bush_murder.html
http://www.newsfollowup.com/bush_rape.htm
http://www.thoughtcrimenews.com/bushrape.htm
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/1550404_comment.php
http://www.disinfotainmenttoday.com/issue92.htm
http://www.libertythink.com/archives/2002_12_08_archives.html
http://www.thc-ministry.net/forum/archive/bush-rape-accuser-found-dead-562.htm
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/12/13/40786.html
http://s90114153.onlinehome.us/html/modules/mydownloads/
http://www.mindprod.com/bush911.html
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/12/48880.html
In the end, this investigation yielded the following information: Plaintiff had seven dates, (which became seven lovers), had told no lies, committed no crimes, gotten 2 traffic tickets and dated George W. Bush as a minor.”
It’s hard to find these threads again! Anyway, maybe I should have made it clearer, Enron is clearly guilty, & their conduct was despicable, but I was writing that I don’t think that makes EVERY corporation guilty. Conspiracy theory? You didn’t answer my question (do you see any parallel?) unless your think it’s all a lie(conspiracy theory). In that case, who do you think is making up the lies, & why?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52682-2004Oct21?language=printer
I do not think it is lies. Conspiracy theory? No! It is not a action but a view of action. Like Enron for example, case in point, the economy must continue to survive, then what is seen by the welthy as the trickle down effect, because they spend so much fuels the poor. Scraps you know.
I don’t understand your answer! I majored in rhetoric, wrote my senior thesis on it. Rhetoric is the many different views of actions, but there are ALWAYS actions, NEVER “not a[n] action.” (Just like there is always matter with many different views of it, but there is NO anti-matter.)
Do you see any similarity between the corruption of French, German, & Russian corporations accepting bribes from Saddam from money that was meant to aid the starving & Enron officials doing insider trading against employee’s retirement funds? If not, what is the differnce?
It is good to be calm, not to react in a hasty manner, Fangorn (Treebeard) the Ent always said. Besides its not like its over, votes are still being tallied, the mighty whurlitzer? may be playing MannnnnnDateeeee, but nothing is official yet. In fact at least one state is in do over mode already. I apologise for my home state Ohio, I guess we were really jealous of Florida, and wanted to show them how its done. For sake of disclosure I am a wild eyed radical conspiracy monger with delusions of grandure. And I am still worried about that misplaced RDX and HMX and what kind of Christmas surprises will be in peoples mailboxes this year??
It sucks that I am in a different time zone and when I am reading and replying I am really, really tired. Its midnight here and I have been trying to keep up with three really great hyperactive ofspring, but I do wnat to put my two-cents in. I survived a really bad war (I thought never again) then the protests to stop it. I only have one regret that I didn’t follow the lead of many of my brothers and get into politics. I abandoned my duty, because I thought that my country had abandoned me! Now with the passing of years and the acceptance of adult resposibilities through raising a family, I have come to terms with myself and understanding more about the time in which I grew up. Hindsight is wonderful except it happens after the fact so a bit non-sequitur to this argument.
But I am in for the long haul, and I think the best days of the Republic are before us. Hell the Republicans have held power almost my entire adult life, and it hasn’t destroyed the country, or the progressives, and we can still worship or not, and tomorrow still comes.
Good night or Good morning.
Too few words to express a thought, Enron, morally can be justified in the minds of those that bend the law.
They are the same people who lobby and pay to have items written into law. After the process of law, the use of its complexities and loopholes are exploited by the same corrupt group that pushed its creation.This is an Action on the part of the corrupt designer or backer of the designer of a law. When a person has a vested interest, it is generally steeped in the litigation, and someone will win and lose. More often than not the strong survive and the week are the ones that suffer. More often than not the strong are strong in law due to the corrupt nature of those concerned with it. One the world scene, energy is a wonderful commodity. Like the phone company and phone calls the wires are in and the maintenance is expected. So all you do is set up a company and use it within the law marginally, create a fright or two, and charge what you will for the commodity. Snake oil, Gas Masks, or Oil. The money is so big that the world is involved not just Enron or Halliburton, its countries. All countries need to fuel there economy. When they are being locked out by one, (not allowed to bid) they will find a way to internationally compete. Saddam is beyond any doubt a bad guy in our eyes. He has a way that we do not approve. It is a cultural thing that his people have lived with and some do agree and approve. Some countries see things like they would chose to see them like a small child that would rather not eat and go to bed hungry than to do what was told them to do.
Hit the ball = Action singular
“More often than not the strong survive and the week are the ones that suffer.”
This is only true if we evolved from ameobas & there is nothing higher than our brains. I’ve seen too many cases of strong protecting the weak to believe this to always be the case. Really, it mostly happens when others turn a blind eye.
“All countries need to fuel there economy. When they are being locked out by one, (not allowed to bid) they will find a way to internationally compete.”
I don’t quite see that fact the same way. What the hell are they “locked out of?” EVERYONE agreed to sanction Saddam. I’ve lived in those countries, they don’t “need” 1/8 the fuel we do, you can’t even really use it for heating. We gobble up something like 10 times as much oil as anyone else, & we still refuse to buy from him, & we are the ONLY country to refuse to buy from Iran. We are allies with Israel, who has NO oil, & against her enemies who DO have oil.
It also might not be quite correct to put Enron & Halliburton in the same category. Halliburton is only under investigation, & as much as all those opposed to the war on Terror would like the allegations to become a conviction, that hasn’t happened yet. Companies have to make a profit working overseas or they won’t do it. Making a profit doesn’t mean corruption. Lying does.
ellie, you do not really care about the truth. Are you so naive to think that the people that say go to prison are always the guilty one over the other party? The guy with the girl deserved her over the contender. I feel you are not worth my time. You just want to disagree for the sake of the augment.
It has not occurred to you that China buys from them, That it is then shipped across the ocean to our country and forces prices down. That the people here will buy it and sell it. That it effects our economy. That our government chooses to control our economy right down to the dinner table.
Actually, there IS antimatter.
I would argue that it’s fair to group both companies. Halliburton has been convicted on multiple counts of SEC fraud as was Enron. Halliburton was convicted of defrauding the US government as was Enron, we’re just waiting to see how much they get way with on this one.
Truth is one of the things I care about most. No, not simply for the sake of argument. I think it’s important to expose my views to disagreement to see how strong they are. If your senario involving China is correct, China is the 2nd largest consumer, so I don’t think they’re leaving us much. Either way, French, German, & Russian corporations are still morally reprehensible for taking something PURELY for profit & lying about where they got it. So far all you have done is disagree, & I can’t see any support you have given for your beliefs except that it allows you to blame others for screwing up the world rather than take responsibility for what you could do to improve it. As for antimatter, I wouldn’t trust ABC to tell me what country I live in. Theory doesn’t make truth. & I haven’t come accross any stories finding Halliburton guilty…?
Then maybe this will help:
Published on Thursday, August 10, 2000 in the Chicago Tribune
Cheney’s Black Gold:
Oil Interests May Drive US Foreign Policy
by Marjorie Cohn
What do the Persian Gulf, the Caspian Sea and the Balkans have in common? U.S. domination in these areas serves the interests of corporate multimillionaires such as Dick Cheney. As George Bush’s secretary of defense, Cheney was chief prosecutor of Operation Desert Storm in 1991. Humanitarian rhetoric notwithstanding, the bombing of Iraq—which continues to this day—was primarily aimed at keeping the Persian Gulf safe for U.S. oil interests. Shortly after Desert Storm, the Associated Press reported Cheney’s desire to broaden the United States’ military role in the region to hedge future threats to gulf oil resources. Cheney is CEO of Dallas-based Halliburton Co., the biggest oil-services company in the world. Because of the instability in the Persian Gulf, Cheney and his fellow oilmen have zeroed in on the world’s other major source of oil—the Caspian Sea. Its rich oil and gas resources are estimated at $4 trillion by U.S. News and World Report. The Washington-based American Petroleum Institute, voice of the major U.S. oil companies, called the Caspian region, “the area of greatest resource potential outside of the Middle East.” Cheney told a gaggle of oil industry executives in 1998, “I can’t think of a time when we’ve had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian.”
But Caspian oil presents formidable obstacles. Landlocked between Russia, Iran and a group of former Soviet republics, the Caspian’s “black gold” raises a transportation dilemma. Russia wants Caspian oil to run through its territory to the Black Sea. The United States, however, favors pipelines through its ally, Turkey.
Although the cheapest route would traverse Iran to the Persian Gulf, U.S. sanctions against Iran block this alternative. Cheney has lobbied long and hard, as recently as June, for the lifting of those sanctions, to lubricate the Iran-Caspian connection. This is consistent with his position, described in a 1997 article in The Oil and Gas Journal, that oil and gas companies must do business in countries with policies unpalatable to the U.S.
Cheney also favors the repeal of section 907 of the 1992 Freedom Support Act, which severely restricts U.S. aid to Azerbaijan because of its ethnic cleansing of the Armenians in Nagorno Karabakh, a mountainous enclave in Azerbaijan. Why would Cheney choose to ignore Azerbaijan’s human-rights violations? Because Azerbaijan, key to the richest Caspian oil deposits, is, according to the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, “in fact, the focal point of the next round in the Great Game of Nations, a dangerous, hot-headed place with a Klondike of wealth beneath it. It is Bosnia with oil.”
Cheney’s oily fingerprints are all over the Balkans as well. Last year, Halliburton’s Brown & Root Division was awarded a $180 million a year contract to supply U.S. forces in the Balkans. Cheney also sits on the board of directors of Lockheed Martin, the world’s largest defense contractor. Replacing munitions used in the Balkans could result in $1 billion in new contracts.
War is big business and Dick Cheney is right in the middle of it.
Meanwhile, our energy and gasoline prices continue to soar in many parts of the United States. OPEC controls the oil production in the Persian Gulf. Cheney, worried about a falloff in investment, spoke in favor of OPEC cutting oil production so oil and gasoline prices could rise.
Cheney is ineluctably invested in keeping the world safe for his investments.
Although he stepped down as CEO of Halliburton, he still owns shares of stock in the conglomerate and his financial interests in the Persian Gulf, the Caspian region and the Balkans will invariably continue. Chosen by George W. Bush to bring foreign-policy expertise to the GOP presidential ticket, we can expect a Republic administration to increase U.S. intervention in regions when it suits Dick Cheney’s oil and other corporate concerns.
Right now there are sanctions on Azerbaijan. We’re not allowed to spend any U.S. government dollars in that country. That’s not a response to what we perceive to be sound foreign policy in that part of the world. It’s more specifically a reflection of a desire by Congress to respond to the concerns voiced by the Armenian-American community, which is bigger than the Azerbaijani-American community. As a result we currently have a prohibition against U.S. government money being spent in Azerbaijan….The problem in part stems from the view by my former colleagues on Capitol Hill that sanctions are the low-cost option. It is the cheap, easy thing to do. You don’t have to appropriate any taxpayer’s money. You don’t send any young Americans into combat….
An example that comes immediately to mind has to do with efforts to develop the resources of the former Soviet Union in the Caspian Sea area. It is a region rich in oil and gas. Unfortunately, Iran is sitting right in the middle of the area and the United States has declared unilateral economic sanctions against that country. As a result, American firms are prohibited from dealing with Iran and find themselves cut out of the action, both in terms of opportunities that develop with respect to Iran itself, and also with respect to our ability to gain access to Caspian resources. Iran is not punished by this decision. There are numerous oil and gas development companies from other countries that are now aggressively pursuing opportunities to develop those resources. That development will proceed, but it will happen without American participation. The most striking result of the government’s use of unilateral sanctions in the region is that only American companies are prohibited from operating there.—Dick Cheney, head of Haliburton, June 23, 1998.
http://www.alternet.org/story/12525
http://www.harvardwatch.org/
http://www.john-loftus.com/enron3.asp
http://www.itsallpolitics.com/viewtopic.php?t=482&start=0
Now Ellie, tell me just how much time did you spen in China? Did you talk to any of the oil exporters there? Admittedly it has been awhile for me but the plans have not changed, as I see them, Maybe you can shed some light on the subject at this point.
*cough* um, That ‘ABC that you’re incorrectly referencing happens to be governmental library link to the ABC’s of Nuclear Science.
Now I can see how you missed those articles about Halliburton’s Fraudulent Behavior.
Oh, China is actually Third in import consumption, with imports approximately half that of the United.
Are you sure?
I shouldn’t have used a science analogy, since I only know the basics. I was taught in physics that there is no anti-matter, & I lack the interest or sophistication in science to grasp that theory. It doesn’t change the basic principle of rhetoric that while we may not know the facts and there are differing perspectives of them, there is no such thing as non-facts unless you can prove lies. I ascertained that you do not thing allegations of corruption against the U.N. & European corporations are lies.
Once again you’ve demonstrated an ability to ignore my question to drone on about something I don’t care about. To be fair, I’m sure me being angry about the murder of innocent people sounds the same to you. So let’s say (for the sake of argument, truth, if you insist,) that Halliburton is guilty of, uh… squeezing out the competition to charge our military more than they had to to make a reasonable profit, I guess. & sure, blah, blah, blah, our government or this administration or whatever has unfair/corrupt policies toward Azerbaijan. (Which my friend who grew up there agrees with, BTW.) I’m not asking you to believe our government is fair or good.
I’m asking if it seems in any way possible that European countries are likewise corrupt, to the tune of 22 billion dollars & as yet uncounted deaths. The U.N. doesn’t even have the excuse that Clinton did. These lies aren’t about sex. They are ACTIVELY blocking the investigation. Enron was (by comparison) 600 million on paper that didn’t exist to blow up their worth & therefore non-existent, not stolen, & a measly 14 million from investors. (How many people do you know who are wealthy & can afford to invest in the stock market?) I can’t even find an amount for Halliburton because their critics keep spitting out the cost of the whole war.
I know you may not care, I just want to know WHY Enron & Halliburton make you so much angrier than the French, Germans, Russians & the U.N? I know the reason for my bias is that the U.N. isn’t even SUPPOSED to be a company for profit. They’re supposed to PROTECT lives, not destroy them for profit. I may be wrong, but the European companies involved KNEW Saddam was killing people & hoped to get WMDs. Enron officials took $ from investors & employees. $ can be replaced, lives can’t. As for Halliburton, even if the worst alligations are true, (& I may be wrong) I don’t see how it costs lives. The life of a terrorist is to me a negative-sum “black hole.” It’s not that a terrorist is not human, but if s/he lives, numerous others die. I’m glad our soldiers have the equipment to kill terrorists & protect themselves.
& while I’m at it, I guess I’ll go for broke. WHY are we allies with Israel, who has NO oil, & against Iran & others who do have oil? God forbid, in no way am I asking you to consider that our country is anything less than the scourge of the earth & the only remaining cause of pain & suffering therefore inhibiting a European Utopia…okay, I’ll stop with the sarcasm. I actually want to know what you think of these things…PLEASE NOTE I AM AWARE THAT ENRON IS CURRUPT & UNDERSTNAND YOUR ARGUMENT THAT HALLIBURTON IS AS WELL. COULD YOU PLEASE CLEARLY ANSWER REGARDING OIL-FOR-FOOD & ISRAEL???
To make it simpler, do you see Halliburton as equal, better, or worse if guilty of planning to get oil through Azerbaijan in spite of ethnic cleansing? I guess Saddam isn’t that bad, he murdered people of all ethnicities who disagreed with him.
Sorry I didn’t respond to your original question as I was only originally responding to this thread to correct a few overlooked errors.
Do I think the UN is corrupt and has blood on its hands? Yep. In the same way that US congress is corrupt, UK and French Parliaments are corrupt and so on. The difference being when the corruption occurs in the UN, it is generally more visible and has a more widespread impact due to the global nature of the organization.
Not sure what you’re after here. I know of quite of few people that lost their retirement investment because of Enron and are know back in the labor force. Enron didn’t just exaggerate earnings. Cooking the books and money shifting is little more complex than that. Are you looking for an amount that Halliburton has recently bilked the US for? I believe the number is around $600 mil. But I digress.
Why are we allies with Israel? Ever since the Israel was reestablished following WWII, the United States, along with its NATO allies, vowed to protect and defend her. It’s not a relationship maintained for economic or political benefit so much as a relationship of obligation. Obviously, over the years that has changed to become more of a relationship with severe diplomatic influences.
I see Halliburton’s behavior equal to that of the European leaders and the UN in the oil for food scandal. Traditionally, Halliburton has done everything in their power to bend the law with total disregard for the intent. This has resulted in their style of predatory capitalism providing for and creating more terrorist organizations throughout the middle-east for the world to contend with.
To speak to the issue of Azerbaijan directly. Remember, in 1997, Dick Cheney himself lobbied congress to remove sanctions against Azerbaijan stating they were not doing anything to violate human rights. As it turns out, all he wanted to do was open the doors for Halliburton.
This is a place where only opinion can be attached to the discussion by me. In an earlier post I made the statement that it was a view of event. I feel that ethnic cleansing is wrong. It is as wrong now as it was 5ooo years ago. The taking of a mans life is wrong, especially when it is for the pushing of an economy when the policy makers see wealth over the peoples best interest in humanity. Back to the view, Its kind of like a car crash from two sides of the street. one sees the car coming from the right and one from the left, both see the crash differently. I am an American that does not like dung in my home. Its not that I like dung at all it is just that I talk about what I feel is effecting me more. On a global scale and if I was there I would be more knowledgeable about the effects of the action/actions there. The whole thing is wrong and the keeping with an oil base economy is out dated. Just keeping those that do not know another way to keep in the living style that they have become accustom to by ruining the earth and killing people on it is what upsets this simple man. Global warming is being ignored, people being headed through society to create a funnel for the military, bombing innocent, the theft of a nations political structure overall thanks to people like Tom Delay and the hypocrisies of money over humanity while we suffer just has the smell of a dung pile. I just hope that by my writing people know that not all Americans like the way thing are.
Best regards,
KRRJR
Thanx, I appreciate the straight answers. I can see your point of view, although I don’t necessarily agree in that I put a higher priority on UN world scandal for the very reasons deadscot said: “The difference being when the corruption occurs in the UN, it … generally … has a more widespread impact due to the global nature of the organization.” But I would disagree that it’s more visible. People report what they like & few people want the UN to look bad, whereas no one cares about Enron or Halliburton’s reputation except the CEO’s & investors. I differ in that I put a higher priority on UN corruption because it is not a business, & there is no agency to police it as our government can corporations.
I just bumped into your site. It is several months after the election but I must say that enjoyed your very rational essay. I think you are right, we need to think about not alienating the moderates who could swing the other way next time.
Interestingly, there is a sociological theory of “social change” that suggests that for significant social change to take place (say public sentiment against a war) there always needs to be a “vangard” that brings attention to problem which is then resolved by the moderates (maybe that’s like the mother outside Bush’s ranch in Texas the other month).
On that note, let me suggest that the great Sociologist C. Wright Mills explained in his 1950’s book “The Power Elite” that the economic elite (the grandchildren of the robber barrons plus the newer wealthy owners of the military industrial complex) – recognized by no less a conservative republican then Dwight Eisenhower – would use that power to take over the political system. One of the ways they do this is to groom some of their children to become politicians (the political elite). Usually, at an Ivy League University, like Yale, where they belong to a secret society, like Skull and Bones.
The theory is given great credibility by the remarkable exchange of letters between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams in their later years regarding the “aristocracy” (see Pulitzer Prize winning history by Joseph Ellis – The Founding Brothers – last chapter “the friendship”). There are also numerous facts to support the theory, such as the very demonstrable and incredible accumulation of wealth within 1/2 of 1% of the U.S. population. I won’t belabor the point, though I surely could.
So, where is the vangard? Where are the leaders in our time comparable to Tom Paine, Adams, Franklin, Washington, Madison, Jefferson etc.?
John Kerry? Here is a paraphrase summary of an interview of Kerry by Charlie Rose a month or two before the elections:
So John, I believe you went to the same University as George W? Yeah that’s right Charlie, we both went to Yale.
An I understand it John you were also in the same secret society, Skull and Bones, as George W., is that correct?
Well yes Charlie we were.
Well tell me John, what was that like?
Well Charlie, that’s why they call it a secret society.
No more questioning along those lines by Rose.
Unless we can take back our political system from the grip of the elite, I am a little concerned about our ability to deal with the very real and very serious global environmental catastrophe that is looming in the background. I highly recommended visiting globalwarming.com and exploring the links to the input from the “real” scientific community.
Globalwarming.com is a “virtual” march on Washington to conslude on earth day April 2006. I want a “real” march starting on Lexington green (the site of “the shot heard round the world”) April 19, 2006 and marching to Washington D.C. by July 4th (with all the media attentio we can get) and camping on the public space until the legislative and executive branches deal with the problem. Or, we begin the process of throwing all but the few lwft that have any integrity out of office in Novemwber 2006
We need to do this for our children and grandchildren. I’ll be on Lexington Green at the minuteman statue April 19, 2006. Democracy is coming!
William Prince