A couple of weeks ago, in Setsuna’s entry, Answers in Genesis indeed, our very own commenter Rev. Eric Ragle lamented:
“It’s funny to be (sic) that the liberal left claims they want tolerance for all, but by doing so they are intolerant to Christians. And that’s not to imply I know anyone here’s political agenda, just making a point.”
He included five links to reports of Christian’s being persecuted and the same individual showed up in each story: one Michael Marcavage, head of Philadelphia based Repent America.
Now, I understand that some of this nation’s most important social advances have been accomplished via protest, and I have no aversion to groups peaceably assembling; I’ve done so myself on occasion. But you need to be a disenfranchised entity to get my pity or my support. Followers of Christianity are usually not such an animal and often are even the oppressor. So, I wasn’t surprised to see, when reading a report titled TESTING THE FAITH :11 Christians arrested at homosexual event, that Mr. (is HE a Reverend TOO) Marcavage is still up to his same tricks.
According to a statement from Life and Liberty Ministries, on Sunday the Christian protesters were “preaching God’s Word” to the crowd of people attending the outdoor Philadelphia OutFest event and displaying banners with biblical messages.
Not long after the group began their activity, members of the Pink Angels, which the statement describes as “a militant mob of homosexuals,” confronted the protesters and attempted to drown out their message with whistles, while hiding the signs with large sheets of pink Styrofoam.
“Even though the Christians obeyed all laws, city ordinances and lawful requests by the Philadelphia police officers on hand,” said Life and Liberty Ministries, “they were promptly and without warning arrested and hauled off to jail, where they spent 21 hours before being released on Monday morning.”
Eight charges were filed against the protesters, including three felonies and five misdemeanors. The charges were: criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment of another person, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct, and obstructing highways.
“This is one of the most remarkable and unlawful actions by police that I have ever witnessed,” said Michael Marcavage, director of Repent America. “Their blatant disregard of the law by allowing hecklers to impede our way, block our message and then arrest us, is inexcusable, especially by police officers who are specially trained to protect civil rights.
“Christians are now being labeled as ‘haters’ and any speech that homosexuals perceive to be intimidating, such as our Christian witness at OutFest, makes them a prime target for ‘hate crimes legislation.’”
I don’t have pictures of the event but I would be willing to bet that Repent America protesters had signs suggesting that God hates homosexuals and that they will burn in hell, and this would make their assembly confrontational. With hundreds of thousands of churches in this country, all protected by the Constitution, assisted through tax codes and accepted as valuable, even necessary, expressions of human community, it’s hard to imagine these people don’t have enough outlets in order to preach and assemble. Why would they need to go to such places as OutFest when their religion is given so many opportunities to be expressed?
I suspect Repent America, and so many other organizations like it, just seek to be antagonistic. I can’t imagine how my sexual identity and the benign ways I express it harms others. I certainly have no desire to be a negative influence on American society. Truth be told, I have many of the same aspirations, dreams and hopes for a successful existence that others have. I don’t enjoy being part of a special class of individuals. I would much rather fade into the surroundings but present circumstances won’t allow it. Right now I need to speak up for equal rights and equal acceptance. But I won’t go into Churches with signs saying “Christians are clueless idiots who spread hate and intolerance!” or “AIDS is nature’s way of punishing Christians!” I’ll simply use my resources for communication and respectfully present the subject and my views, as long as it hasn’t been covered enough, in forums and blogs such as SEB.
I have little patience with people like Vice-President Cheney pretending that private issues (see GeekMom’s entry) were needlessly publicly exposed. His and his daughter’s lives are in the public domain because they have made public statements concerning gay issues. You can’t thank one debate antagonist for mentioning the existence of a gay daughter then turn around and chastise another for doing the same. Well, you can but then it just seems like more of the baseless “I’m being abused” bullshit that people like Eric Ragle bring to the discussion.
So here is my challenge – Prove to me that my lifestyle is dangerous to you personally. Please avoid using arguments such as pedophiles seeking equal rights because I find pedophilia just as abhorrent as most of you do. Nor do I support making love to or allowing marriage between a man and a donkey. Just show me how I compromise your chances for health and happiness, by loving and making love to, and even wishing I could marry another man.
If it’s just an attitude adjustment that you need and then I will not threaten you, by all means search for a way to adapt that attitude. After all, it could be that you are harming yourself more than I ever could.
Source: From that bastion of impartial reporting: WorldNetDaily
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40929
Perhaps, although unless you know exactly what prompted me to pose my original question don’t be too quick about including yourself.
Zilch, good points – only I wasn’t even referring to creationism. To paraphrase somebody else, it’s virtually futile to reason with a creationist, but the least you can do is study their psychology.
I simply come away with a feeling that vocal theists are more likely to be lazy about making their case than vocal atheists are in defending from these theist’s attacks.
By the way, I’m pretty tired about the argument from linking on either side. At least summarize and explain what point the site is trying to make and why I should bother to look it up…
Sorry, Les but it’s mostly Zilch’s fault. He used more of the words than I did.
You know just as an observation: I don’t think I want to believe in Heaven. Not only do I have to try to get myself in but I have to get the souls of my feet in as well.
That’s not the sole reason for not believing. On the other foot, the Muslims are offering 72 virgins to believers. Hot diggity dog! I’m sold.
zilch,
There are also cantankerous wieners like me that deny that there’s any such thing as “truth”, but yet think that they’re less wrong than other people.
Perhaps, although unless you know exactly what prompted me to pose my original question don’t be too quick about including yourself.
Thanks, elwedriddsche. Generous advice, and I appreciate it.
Tangent to a drift off-topic, but is there a thread in here (being: this amazing site) somewhere that debates the *scientific* difficulties of evolution? I dread asking, almost, because I don’t want the inevitable evolutionism/creationism food fight…
Zilch and Kelly, there are actually a few more threads. Depending on what you are after, SEB may not be a good choice. Specifically, do you refer to creationist arguments (and I use the term loosely) or the debate within the scientific community about nuts and bolts?
I haven’t followed zilch’s link yet, but I do appreciate the offer, and I’ll take a peek!
elwedriddsche, I am looking for (roughly) scientific debates. Creationism seems a different plane, and it could be counterproductive to place side by side with scientific enquiry.
I have this idea about entropy… never mind. I really do need better sleeping habits!
The place to look for these would be scientific journals, conference proceedings, and the like.
You may want to try to contact Alec at Evolution Pages, but that domain doesn’t resolve for me right now.
Don’t we all
Tell us your idea- I’d love to hear it. And be careful- regular use of SEB can interfere with good sleeping habits!
Thank you kindly – if I find a place to put it, I’m sure there are many people who will be disappointed you’re encouraging me! I haven’t found a thread in which it might belong. It’s not fair to Brock to put it here, ‘cause it’s certainly nothing to do with Christians protesting homosexual behavior.
And, after following the link to the food fight, it doesn’t really belong there, either. I need to get off this site. People are asking me if I’ve been working too hard…
I ran across this video of the Philadelphia Outfest invasion (and I do consider it to have been one) by Christian Activists led by Michael “Do you know who I am” Marcavage (listen for it) and I found it somewhat telling. He spends most of his time in the video speaking about how his groups rights are being violated and then admits that he had been arrested before for obstructing a public walkway. I bet he thought he had a right to at the time.
I have a hard time forming a final opinion on this issue though. I’m completely in support of peaceable assembly, I just have my doubts that people like those in his group would quietly allow gays rights activists to invade a church revival. I think then his view would be that the undesired protagonists were being disorderly and inciting riots simply by being there.
Putting the shoe on the other foot is always good for checking how it fits.
Iv seen a version of this that wasn’t promoted and shot by this Christian hate group.
They were very clearly antagonizing and preaching hatred, obstructing booths that were set up as a business with permits etc.
also the reason these lunatics were arrested is because they were asked to leave several times, also the Gay punk angels were asked to stop.
Difference is the gay anti-protesters did exactly as they were told, the Christians fanatics did NOT, therefore they forced their own arrest.
I hope they all get tried and convicted of hate crimes and go to jail for several years.
Can you find a link to post here, Nuya? I really would like to see it.
I think only four of them still have charges active, though I don’t know which four.
One of my favorite spots in this video is where Marcavage encourages an old lady to move through the pink panel carriers that are surrounding them to cover the hateful messages, by saying “I’ll follow you ma’am”. He’s such a wuss!
With his Mr. Microphone like setup, I expected him to look toward the camera and say “Hey God lover, I’ll be back to pick you up later.”
I suspect the man just wants to be famous for fame’s sake.
Sorry I am a little late to the party. I found this site after Googling my name and that of my brother, Eric Ragle. (Come on, you know everyone does that.)
I wanted to point out that I consider my brother a barometer of the conservative, evangelical Christian community. Thus, I dedicated a portion of my own blog to watching what he says and responding to it as quickly as I can. This keeps the impact of his misinformation to a hoped-for minimum.
Most recently, I took on the copied-and-pasted “Facts About Homosexuals”. He has since taken the anti-homosexual section of his website offline and avoided that issue altogether aside from the odd swipe here and there. I encourage others to take a look at both our sites and offer your feedback. Thanks!
Eric’s site: http://www.ericragle.coom
My site: http://www.warriorvisions.com
Welcome, Brian. Having read through the archives of this site, the one positive that I can attribute to your brother is that he comes off as more polite than most fundamentalists that visit SEB.
Now that’s dedication, Sadie.
If you want real politeness, visit Eric Ragle’s site. Typical quote:
In all of the debates Eric and I have had, his rebuttals have invariably come down to some variation on the following:
1. That’s just liberal spin.
2. Why are you are getting so emotional?
3. That’s a logical fallacy (without explaining how or which one).
4. Liberals/Democrats/feminists/atheists/secular humanists/immigrants are stupid, lazy people who are living in this great nation for free and siphoning off the welfare dollars his taxes pay (though he doesn’t have a job).
As far as politeness goes, what zilch said.
I’ll say. Wish some of the Creationists who stop by would take the time to read through the archives. At least on the posts dealing with the whole Evolution debate.
Hell, some of those alone would take the better part of an evening to read through.
In honor of the mark my brother has left on so many people, as evidenced by a Google of his name, I made my Brother Watch blog a little easier to find and renamed it in the process. The blog can be accessed directly by visiting http://www.halftruth.us. The domain is still in the process of being forwarded, so if you get an Apple error page, check back later or go to http://www.warriorvisions.com and click on Half Truth at the top.
I have said before that I consider my brother a barometer of extreme conservatism and so his comments make the perfect fodder to take on the whole of that end of the political spectrum.
To burst your brother’s bubble, he hasn’t really left a mark hereabouts. I for one had long forgotten about yet another unremarkable True Believer.
It must suck to be him, though.
I’m not that much of a masochist (probably because I’m too busy spitting on soldiers). Apart from his snide “atheists don’t exist” quip, Eric’s comments at SEB at least struck me as moderately more civil than those of the many other visiting fundies.
There you go again, persecuting those poor Christians. Why can’t we all just learn to let them persecute others in peace?
Can we install CCTV at the next Ragel BBQ. Now that’s uncomfortable ‘reality TV’. (sorry Brian- it struck me how bad it must be for you at these kind of get togethers- given the way me and my brother acted over Rugby/Football (‘soccer to you lot)).
Actually, the times when my family gets together usually means we are all on speaking terms. Eric and I usually end up playing some game, whether video or boardgame. The last time he and I actually spoke in person and it went badly was in the run-up to the Iraqi invasion. We nearly came to a fist fight in our disagreement over why the US couldn’t provide proof of the alleged WMD’s.
Hey, it wasn’t Bush’s fault that we couldn’t find the WMD’s- he even joined in the search personally.
Sheesh.
To mirror a suggestion of DOF’s, ship him to Iraq with standard-issue body armor and embed him in a search team.
I don’t know how the folks in uniform will take that joke, but I would be far from amused in their stead.
What a disgusting excuse for a turd.
Lucky he’s not in Iraq. People have been fragged for less.
I find it deliciously ironic that Bush has pushed so many of the far-right wingers away from the GOP, or at least the current crop of GOP leaders. Eric jumped ship to the Constitution party recently and all signs are pointing to a Democratic upset in the fall and then again in ‘08.
As a born again Christian working inside the community to lesson our judgemental bigoted reputation, I feel it necessary to say that people who really and truly live Christianity do not hate homosexuals, but are strongly convicted that the lifestyle is wrong. I have had great relationships with homosexual co-workers who knew where I stood. None of us ever blasted hate towards the other and it was okay for each of us to live by conviction. We are individuals and for me anyway, I believe my testimony serves better as a loving person than a hateful person. Homosexuals scratching and spitting on Christian protestors (not speaking of the incident named, I don’t know the details of itA) are just as harmful as so-called ‘christian pro-lifers’ who would blow up abortion clinics. I personally think it is too late in history for any group of people to be any more active against another than simply calling representitives and telling them how we feel individually. This way we express our views but are not harming one another. Just my opinion, anyway.