Official SEB Use This Entry To Proselytize To Us So It Won’t Be Off-Topic Elsewhere Thread

Seeing as it’s become quite regular for the True Believers to show up with the intent of trying to reveal “The Truth” to the rest of us around here, often at the expense of taking a thread completely off-topic, I thought it was time to start an entry specifically for those folks so they can get it out of their system. So, if you’re a True Believer that hopes to show us the error of our ways or you just want to angrily defend your belief system or what have you then please feel free to make use of this thread to post your views/rants/thoughts/comments/sermons/arguments from authority/appeals to emotion/or whatever it is you think you need to say.

386 comments

  1. Ingolfson- I’m a lazy perfectionist too…

    Despite their name, I doubt the fundies have fun trying to convert us- it’s their Godgiven duty.  It’s sort of like taking out the garbage- dirty work, but someone has to do it.

    I wonder, though, what sort of points are awarded for this thankless service.  Do you get brownie points for merely posting Bible verses, or do you have to actually save a soul to get a reward from God?

    Maybe it’s something like this:

    Posting appropriate Bible verses: 1 blue star
    Plus, if anyone actually reads them:  another blue star
    Getting someone to answer you:  two blue stars
    If they only make fun of you: minus one blue star
    If one says “you have a point there, but”: one red star
    If one says “some of the Bible is quite nice”: two red stars
    If one says “Glory Gee to Beezus! I’m saved!”: ten gold stars

  2. If they only make fun of you: minus one blue star
    - Zilch

    Actually you get a reward if they make fun of you:

    Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
    12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

  3. Once in a while I get tempted to train one of the A.L.I.C.E. implementations to talk scripture and subscribe it to a religious forum. Then I remember what an investment in time it is and forget about it. – Elwedriddsche

    … but it would be SO damn funny! 

    (The possibility comes to mind that Gabriel is exactly that.  Some fundy programmer may have had the same idea.  Hey, Gabriel, are you a computer program?  Here are some questions a computer would have a difficult time answering: why do you tie your shoes?  Do you butter beer or toast?  Could you fly across the Atlantic on a paper airplane? Why?)

  4. Posting appropriate Bible verses: 1 blue star
    Plus, if anyone actually reads them:  another blue star
    Getting someone to answer you:  two blue stars
    If they only make fun of you: minus one blue star
    If one says “you have a point there, but

  5. And at least as for fishing grounds, they are rich here. Most of us are as apostate as they get. Heck, we even have second-generation atheists here. Who else is one?

  6. Seeing that there’s a lot of ‘lions’ here willing to rip into any hapless christian, being ineffective while posting here is almost tantamount to being an idiot

    I’ve been reading about Saint Irenaeus and Tertullian, both of them advocated the notion that it is only through martyrdom that one achieves grace.  Maybe that’s what Gabriel’s going for, a sort of cyber-passion through the scourging at the hands of the online Romans.

  7. DoF- I sit corrected.  I kowtow in your general direction.
    Ingolfson- my kids are third-generation atheists.
    Porklet- I don’t know if this counts as “scourging”, since he/she/it isn’t replying, and maybe not even reading us Romans…

  8. MATTEW 5:22

        But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgement!  If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council.  And if you curse some one, you are in the danger of the fires of Hell.

  9. Let’s try a direct question:

    Gabriel, are you a person or a computer program?  If you’re just a program spewing Bible verses, why should we pay attention?  On the other hand, if you’re just a person spewing Bible verses, what’s in it for you?  Just curious.

  10. Third generation atheist here, on my fathers side. I could also claim to be a second generation agnostic on my mothers side.

  11. 2TIM 2:14

        Keep reminding them of these things.  Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only runins those who listen.  Do yours best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.  Avoid godless chatter because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.  Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth.  They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.  Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:  “The Lord knows those who are his, and Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.

    2Tim 2:22

        Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.  Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid quarrels.  And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.  Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

  12. It is a robot. Gabe, the bible robot. Gabe – SEB. SEB – Gabe.

    But I don’t know. Aibo is way more fun.

  13. Personally, I’m bored with him. From this point on any comment he posts which is just another regurgitation of Bible versus will be deleted. I have a Bible right in front of me. I don’t need it reproduced passage by passage in the comments on my blog.

  14. Another take on Tim 2:22…

    Flee the evil desires of hatred, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who appeal for empathy with a pure heart.  Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid quarrels.  And the world’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.  Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that knowledge will grant them realization leading them to an understanding of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of hatred, which has taken them captive to do its will.

    Also:

    Just be nice to people and hopefully they will be nice to you.
    Book of Shana Making Shit Up 3:4

  15. Just be nice to people and hopefully they will be nice to you.
    Book of Shana Making Shit Up 3:4

    Don’t sell yourself/your book short.  That’s a good start for civilized discourse.

  16. SMEE 25:6:4 -

    The verse-spouting robots will come among you, yea, and they shall fill your comments with babble; ignore them therefore, and tend to thine own blog and the comments thereto.  Smee will show them the error of their ways, and they will dwell in the land of crocodiles for the length of their span upon this earth.

  17. GM- LOL I just saw a special on crocodiles, and they are truly amazing.  They can slow their heart down to three beats a minute, and pump blood only to the brain and vital organs,which enables them to stay underwater without breathing for up to three hours,  lying in wait for zebras or VSRs.

  18. Why are you going to delete Gabriel?  Is what he is saying starting to hit home?  Let him say what he has to say.  Or are you using your “bordom” as an excuse because you know what he is saying is the truth?  Rock on Gabriel!!!

  19. I agree.  What are you all afraid of?  Are your positions so weak that they cannot withstand debate?  Let him continue!  Who knows?  Perhaps we might learn a little something.  I do have a comment for those “christians” like Servant who made their comments on 10/22/04 using the language he did and pointing fingers.  I am sick and tired of us christians being so prideful of ourselves that we don’t see the sin in our own lives but have no problem pointing the finger at every one else.  It is no wonder there are so many atheists in the world today because they can’t see any difference in us from the rest of the world!  So many of us honor Christ with our lips but our hearts are so far away from Him.  So my advise to you “Servant” is to straighten up and fly right and start acting like your name!  Funny thing is Gabriel used scripture that said we aren’t to judge others because we will be judged ourselves with the same measure.

  20. Are your positions so weak that they cannot withstand debate?

    Debate would require comment, not simply quoting bible passages.

    As for the reason so many atheists exist, it has nothing to do with bad christians. It’s because the whole “invisible man in the sky” concept is ridiculous. It’s a fairie story, like Santa Claus or the Loch Ness Monster. In fact, there’s more empiracl evidence to support the existence of Nessie then there is to support the existence of God.

  21. I thought I might be able to get Gabriel to speak up in his own words for once. Of course, he resorted to making puppet comments using different nicknames to do it, but at least he’s doing more than just regurgitating Bible verses now.

    A little tip to Gabriel/Forrunner/WWJD: I track IP addresses on comments and when the same one shows up on all three (209.37.141.254 – Registered to OSF Healthcare System in Peoria, IL) it’s a little suspicious.

    So tell me, Gabriel, is lying something Jesus would do? Or are you just schizophrenic and that’s why you’re posting from a computer at a Christian healthcare provider?

  22. Woot, Les!

    It’s a fairie story, like Santa Claus or the Loch Ness Monster. In fact, there’s more empiracl evidence to support the existence of Nessie then there is to support the existence of God.

    That is beautiful, KPG.

  23. Speaking of Nessie- some years ago I found a nice little gold-colored figurine of a plesiosaur in a secondhand shop here in Vienna.  The shopkeeper fondly called it “Nessie”, said it was brass, and named a fairly high price. I was tempted (I’m a sucker for dinosaurs) but it lay a bit heavy in my hand for brass.  Looking more closely at the underside, I found a deep scratch that revealed the lead under the surface.  I pointed it out to the shopkeeper, but she incredibly insisted that it was brass even so.  That’s fundamentalism for you.

  24. Zilch, obviously the scratch on the dinosaur was a false clue put there by the creator for your doubting mind to discover.

    And you failed the test by not trusting in the Word, instead preferring to use your own limited powers of seeing the world.

    Shame on you. If all people behaved like you, the world would be full of wickedness and plastic dinosaurs.

  25. ingolfson- luckily, not many people behave like me; but the world is full of wickedness and plastic dinosaurs even so.

  26. No Les, lying is not something that Jesus would do.  Perhaps I tried to be over creative in trying to get my points across.  However, my message still remains true.  Since it seems that all is fair in God haters and believers on this internet site, I considered my various identities as insignificant since most everyone on this site has some sort of encrypted name anyway. 
        I cannot understand how it is that an inteligent man like yourself cannot understand this simple truth.  Can you just answer this one question for me?  If it was possible that you never had to worry about death, why wouldn’t you want to listen.  Why the risk of an eternity in Hell?  In response to Glover”s comment, you are wrong.  The bible has been around for thousands of years and like the nation of Isreal that demands the attention of the world, it just never seems to go away.  I,  just out of common sense would at least consider what it says instead of betting my eternal soul on what someone else thinks.  Our lives are only a vapor in a wind when compared with eternity.  Why wouldn’t you want to take a chance on what the Word says?  Funny thing is that considering the “ridiculous” theory of evolution, these skeletons of what seem to be early versions of man (Java Man, Peking Man, etc) have all been proven to be hoaxes.  People will do anything to get you to believe that your great great great grandpa was a monkey.  Talk about ridiculous.  How do you explain all the conditions being present for life to exist at all?  It took a set of plans just to build your house.  And yet the universe is just a bunch of a billion random mistakes.  No I don’t buy it.  Please if possible,  without the blasphemes towards God,  how is it you find it easier to believe all this nonsense and why you would choose to?

  27. Gabriel, have you ever considered the possibility that you may be backing the wrong horse?  Maybe Allah will throw you into the bottomless pit for not believing in Him.  If you’re worried about risk, you have a LOT to worry about.  Maybe Zeus will stomp you into nothingness since you’re ignoring him. 

    What have WE got to lose by not believing?  We get to lose the paranoia of thinking someone invisible’s watching and judging us all the time.  We get to lose the obsessive-compulsive rituals that take up hours and days and weeks and months of our lives.  We lose the irrational hatred of anyone who doesn’t believe the same way we do.  We lose the centuries of religious violence that is the legacy of believing.  And we lose the superstition that gets in the way of finding out how our universe really works. 

    Now the question is, why don’t YOU want to free yourself of all that too?

    “Remeber, the 9/11 attack was a faith-based initiative too.” – George Carlin

  28. Geekmom,

    We get to lose the obsessive-compulsive rituals that take up hours and days and weeks and months of our lives.

    Now we only need to figure out how to make lines and elevators move faster.  I heard somewhere that by the time we’re 40 we spend at least 5 years waiting in lines.  Moreover, on monday I calculated that I spend at least a half-an-hour to an hour a day riding the elevator (my office is on the 12th floor of a high traffic building, so it takes me about 5-15 minutes for each elevator ride, and I have to come up and down at least 5 or 6 times a day).

  29. In response to Glover”s comment, you are wrong.  The bible has been around for thousands of years and like the nation of Isreal that demands the attention of the world, it just never seems to go away.

    Which is even more reason to dismiss it. You’re talking about a time when people believed the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the Earth. Early civilization is full of primitive superstitions designed to explain things that people didn’t understand. As time and science has progressed and we’ve come to understand scientifically how the universe works, we’ve sat aside the old superstitions. Well, some of us have. Some of us, like you, still cling to them like some sort of spiritual security blanket. If that’s what you feel you need to get through life, knock yourself out, but us intellectual adults will stick with reality.

  30. Perhaps I tried to be over creative in trying to get my points across.

    Posting Bible verses, then posting as different people to pat yourself on the back?  Hate to break it to you, but you are far from the first. 

    People will do anything to get you to believe that your great great great grandpa was a monkey.  Talk about ridiculous.

      Some will go just as far to make you believe in their deity. 

    Please if possible, without the blasphemes towards God, how is it you find it easier to believe all this nonsense and why you would choose to?

    In short, there is more hard evidence for evolution than for Creationism.  I am not a person who, when confronted with something I don’t understand or comprehend, takes it as proof of a deity. 

    And if you’re wanting more, you should read the Hovind mega thread.  I think it has managed to cover most of the debate, and has the relevant links.

  31. Okay, even if the post was adressed to Les mostly, I’ll bite:

    Since it seems that all is fair in God haters and believers on this internet site,

    If you looked at the posts more closely, you’d find few if any here ‘hate’ God. Yes, we ridicule the notion, especially if it is presented in ways we find either boorish or especially unreasonable.

    But we won’t hate something that we do not believe exists. I don’t hate my brother either. Because I have none.

    I sometimes get up a mighty head of steam against RELIGIONS, though, as most of the regulars do, here.

     

    I considered my various identities as insignificant since most everyone on this site has some sort of encrypted name anyway. 

    You were simply being impolite. Dropping quotations like so much waste into a discussion, without adding anything of yourself. As Les said, most people here know the Bible pretty well (I don’t).

    Also, while we do not need to know your real name or adress (I ain’t giving mine out either), it IS pretty impolite to post udner different names to make it appear like you had company in your opinions here. At least you were courageous enough to finally post something real. I can respect THAT, especially after Les called you on it.

    Why the risk of an eternity in Hell?

    Seach for Pascal’s wager here on this site or elsewhere.

    I’ll just add that for me, that risk is so minuscule (I.E. far beyond reasonable doubt and caution) that I can disregard it and sleep well at night.

    I am aware that there is a ninimal chance that I may be wrong. In that case I could either go to Hell – or find that God ha a soft spot in his heart after all, even for someone who erred.

    Its like walking outside. There’s a small chance that a meteor may hit me. But the chance is so small I don’t worry about it.

    Well, maybe (in fact, surely) some people here would object to that analogy. There’s been documentet hits by meteors. No one has documented anyone going to Hell yet. So my analogy doesn’t really hold, but I will still let it stand as a partial explanation here.

    I, just out of common sense would at least consider what it says instead of betting my eternal soul on what someone else thinks. 

    First, I’d say that EVERY regular here HAS considered it, in many case long and deeply (Les, again, search the site). Where do you get off implying that we are careless people just living out our lives in ignorance?

    The very fact of these discussions here (sure, sometimes they degenerate in gabfests or joke-marathons) should show you that we do think about it.

    Me, I was raised in an agnostic/atheist family. But I certainly thought about and discussed God with other people (including religious ones) during my youth and still today, like here.

    But I have come to the conclusion that the God hypothesis has nothing going for him in the ‘evidence’ or ‘logic’ departments, and I value those highly (I believe that would count as vanity in your books).

    The bible has been around for thousands of years and like the nation of Isreal that demands the attention of the world, it just never seems to go away.

    Huh? The pyramids are older. Age is not truth.

    Israel has ceased before and will cease again, just as all nations do.

    People will do anything to get you to believe that your great great great grandpa was a monkey.  Talk about ridiculous. 

    My great great great grandpa wasn’t an ape, I have genealogic records that make me think otherwise.

    You are obviously confused about the timespan involved. Stay around for a couple million years and you may see CHANGES.

     

    How do you explain all the conditions being present for life to exist at all?  It took a set of plans just to build your house.

    Turning the argument on its head: we are HERE because those conditions happened. If they did not, we would NOT be here, and thus not able to argue about it.

    Trees don’t tend to grow in a desert. Neither would life evolve in an environment hostile to it.

    Please if possible, without the blasphemes towards God, how is it you find it easier to believe all this nonsense and why you would choose to?

    EASIER? Hell, when I lay awake some nights, deeply depressed about this or that, I sometimes WISH that life wasn’t finite. Hell, strike that, I wish that a lot of the time.

    One always regrets missed opportunities, for example. More so if you know that this one time is all you have.

    I don’t even know how I will bear aging, knowing that some day soon I’m gonna be dust and memories only.

    But I won’t try to deceive myself. Contrary to what some people on this site have said, I DO feel better, wiser, than religious people. I feel that, all my other failings aside, at least I stand up straight and face it like it is. Even if it can be pretty sad sometimes. But that alone is not an excuse to conciously lie to myself.

    Call that easy? People who believe have it a lot easier. As long as they don’t have doubts, I guess.

  32. Since it seems that all is fair in God haters and believers on this internet site, I considered my various identities as insignificant since most everyone on this site has some sort of encrypted name anyway.

    Encrypted????  Is that what the SEB decoder ring is for?

    Dude, my screenname is also my real life nickname, and that’s my real email under it.  And if I used my very common real first name, which I am sure would apply to others, it would make tracking discussions a nightmare. Unique screen names help to associate personality with the poster.

  33. I would like to think there is an afterlife, where I can be with my loved ones again.  Without proof, I’m not going to spend my life working to get into some afterlife.  Just like I want to win the lotto, but I ain’t going to live like a lotto winner until I do win.

    Ingolfson said it better than I.  Writing is not one of my strong points.

  34. I would like to think there is an afterlife, where I can be with my loved ones again.

    Or even with those that you would like to have counted among your loved ones, but didn’t/couldn’t. As I said – missed opportunities.

    That said, if I could choose, I would choose rebirth. Unlike buddhists, I consider this ‘mortal coil’ to be inherently enjoyable, graceful and full of worthy things to do. I’d probably spend eternity living, if I could.

  35. PS: I just noted that, shortly after Gabriel asked for the blaspheming to stop, I used ‘Hell’ as an exclamation not once but twice.

    Woops. While I certainly won’t promise not to do it again (I don’t assign swearing any significance except potentially rudeness), using those remarks was not intended to insult you.

    Like Les, most of us here actually DO like to discuss with True Believers, as long as they actually react instead of repeat.

  36. “Les, why you bein’ a playa hata?
    You know that I must tout tha creator!

    -Gabe, use the Book and post, post a bunch of quotes, post a bunch of quotes…”

    I, just out of common sense would at least consider what it says instead of betting my eternal soul on what someone else thinks. 

    But it’s not what someone else thinks.  It’s what I think, which is just as important to me as what you think is to you.  I don’t believe what I believe because it’s easier, I believe it because it’s what makes sense to me—as much as what you believe makes sense to you.  Me believing in God would be as absurd as you accepting the fact of evolution.

    Why wouldn’t you want to take a chance on what the Word says? 

    Because I am coming from the point of view that I only get one chance, and why would I want to waste it following a possibility when I’m surrounded by things I find volumes more viable? Ingolfson, I’m with you on rebirth.  I love living on Earth.

    Funny thing is that considering the “ridiculous

  37. No Les, lying is not something that Jesus would do.  Perhaps I tried to be over creative in trying to get my points across.

    “Overly creative,” eh? I must say that’s a pretty good euphemism for “lying.” There’s nothing particularly creative about your attempt at deception either, lots of other morons thought it would work for them too. See, you can’t even be dishonest in an original manner.

    However, my message still remains true.

    You haven’t had a message. Up until you tried to engage in puppet comments you hadn’t said anything that was an original thought of your own.

    Since it seems that all is fair in God haters and believers on this internet site, I considered my various identities as insignificant since most everyone on this site has some sort of encrypted name anyway.

    It is true that several people here do post under pseudonyms, but they use the same one every time and they don’t make up new ones just to give the impression that there is more than one person who is in agreement with them about a subject. The fact that you used multiple names isn’t what makes you a liar. It’s the fact that you tried to pass off each as a separate and real individual who was in agreement with you that makes you a liar. That’s deceptive, dishonest, and a very poor way for a supposedly good Christian to act. But you seem to have a moral system that allows you to stoop to dishonesty when dealing with the opposition so long as your “message remains true.”

    I’d hazard a guess that Jesus wouldn’t approve. At least not if what’s written in the Bible is anything to go by. Don’t you think it’s a little sad that an atheist like myself has a better grasp of what Jesus would do than a supposedly good Christian such as yourself? Perhaps you can explain why we should trust anything you say as being even remotely true in light of the fact that you tried to deceive us? That’s a pretty piss-poor way to convince others you’re on the right path.

    I cannot understand how it is that an inteligent man like yourself cannot understand this simple truth. 

    You would seem to be a poor source for learning about matters of the truth.

    Can you just answer this one question for me?  If it was possible that you never had to worry about death, why wouldn’t you want to listen.  Why the risk of an eternity in Hell?

    Because I don’t believe I’m in any risk of ending up in Hell. It’s hard to worry about ending up someplace I don’t believe in. You may as well be asking me why I don’t worry about being kidnapped by aliens and stranded on the planet Weebo. The reasoning is the same in both cases.

    In response to Glover”s comment, you are wrong.  The bible has been around for thousands of years and like the nation of Isreal that demands the attention of the world, it just never seems to go away.

    As long as there overly credulous people who find it easier to let others think for them rather than think for themselves then the Bible will continue to enjoy a certain level of popularity. Along with most other religious texts.

    I, just out of common sense would at least consider what it says instead of betting my eternal soul on what someone else thinks.

    The irony is you don’t see how you’re betting your soul on what someone else thinks as that’s all the Bible is.

    Our lives are only a vapor in a wind when compared with eternity.  Why wouldn’t you want to take a chance on what the Word says?

    If my only reason for believing is because I fear the possibility that Hell might be real or that I’d miss out on Heaven then I’d be engaging in a “cover your ass” approach to belief which isn’t terribly sincere and which I’d doubt any real God worth his omnipotence would consider an acceptable rational. That’s the flaw in Pascal’s Wager, which is what you’re proposing here even though you don’t seem to be educated enough to realize it.

    Funny thing is that considering the “ridiculous

  38. …I didn’t ask you to come here and spout off random Bible versus as though you were dispensing the wisdom of the ages… – Les

    Sure you did, Les   raspberry

    …please feel free to make use of this thread to post your views/rants/thoughts/comments/sermons/arguments from authority/appeals to emotion/or whatever it is you think you need to say. – Les

    Of course, it didn’t come with any guarantee the commenter wouldn’t have his ass handed to him on a platter with all the fixin’s, if that’s what he SO had coming to him.

    Gabe, (if that is your real name!  tongue wink ) you want to try another approach?  Do a little reading around the site, maybe check out some of the links from various discussions?  Then come back and try to say something more original.  We’ll still be here.

  39. Yep, I suppose I did sort of ask for it in a way, but I was hoping that the folks involved would at least do more than simply parrot passages I’ve read several times already.

  40. Sadly, most of them conform to the same pattern – show up not having read other threads (or even the rest of this one,) try Pascal’s wager, say evolution is false because they just don’t get it, and get huffy when they aren’t welcomed as saviors.

    Lying by pretending to be multiple people was a new wrinkle, though.

  41. Yes, we’ve heard this all before.  Gabe, if you want us to take you seriously, and we will, you can’t be so lazy.  Do some research- right now you’re at the stupid end of the fundy spectrum, and your “arguments” are so lame they can’t really be logically engaged or refuted.  The best thing, of course, would be to check out some books or sites by real scientists, for instance:
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/
    If you are afraid of having your faith warped by atheists, at least come up with some creationist arguments that present a reasonable similacrum of logic and get past the “my grandfather was not a monkey” stage.  Try
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/
    for some positions we can get our teeth into.

    Are they getting some reward in Darwin Heaven for doing so?

    Shana, don’t pull poor Gabe’s wing.  You get your monthly check, just as we all do, from Lucifer Inc.  Make a pact with Darwin for fun and profit.

    All the other clever and withering remarks that come to mind have been preempted by you mindreading atheists. See you all later- in Hell!

  42. Caught red-handed, Zilch.  I just got paid today.

    I sold my soul to Darwin for opposable thumbs, kit kats, and cheese whiz. It was totally worth it.

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