One of the defenses put forth for leaving the reference to God in the current Pledge of Allegiance is that no one is required to participate even when schools are required to lead classes in a daily recitation by state law. When it’s pointed out that kids who decide not to participate may be coerced or humiliated by others for a supposed lack of patriotism the response is to brush such concerns aside as not being likely. Yet news reports of just this sort of thing happening continue to pop up. The latest involves an eighth-grader at Silverbrook Middle School in Wisconsin named Rachel Morris who found herself being questioned first by her teacher and then the school principal when she refused to stand for the Pledge at the start of the school day.
When she refused to stand on the first day her teacher repeatedly questioned her as to why after class was over. Rachel explained that she didn’t have to provide a reason. After refusing to stand on the second day she was summoned to the Principals office.
Principal Cindy Guell said she called Rachel to her office on the second day partly to discuss the pledge but also to make sure everything was going OK for her. This is Rachel’s first year in the district.
“She said it was against her religion to say the pledge. I said, That’s fine.’ I told her that basically, we stand anyway as a way to honor our nation.”
Guell said Rachel was never told she had to stand. However, Guell acknowledged that, at her instruction, a statement was read over the intercom Wednesday and Thursday before the pledge that said, “The reason we stand is to honor our country.”
The statement was intended to clarify the issue for students, not to needle Rachel, Guell said.
Said Rachel: “It was embarrassing because people kept looking at me like I didn’t honor my country.”
The Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, which intervened at the family’s request, said the school officials’ actions amount to intimidation.
“They were putting psychological and authoritarian pressure on her to conform,” said foundation spokeswoman Annie Laurie Gaylor.
While it’s true that the Principal never specifically said Rachel had to stand, the implication in the statement she did make and the announcement read before the pledge made it clear that she fully expected Rachel to do so regardless of whether Rachel had to or not.
“She said that even if you don’t recite the pledge, you can at least stand to show respect for your country,” Rachel said. “She said I should just stand and try it.”
Guell said Rachel may have misinterpreted concern for her well-being as an attempt to change her behavior. “I personally feel really bad that she feels this way.”
Guell may have had good intentions, but whether she realizes it or not she was applying pressure on Rachel to conform as was the teacher. What the hell is wrong with just letting her sit quietly in her seat without question if she doesn’t wish to participate? Why bother “clarifying” anything to the rest of the students unless you’re trying to draw attention to the person who isn’t conforming? Whatever reasons Rachel may have for not participating are hers to reveal or not reveal as she should choose and if she isn’t required to participate then she shouldn’t be required to explain why she chooses not to. It’s none of your damned business why she doesn’t want to participate.
*sigh*
And that doesn’t sound like fundie-talk?
One of the most tried and true methods for fundie-attack is to tell dissenters to
1)Leave the country
2)Assert that the dissenter is overly proud, and that their dissent is all about feeding their own little ego.
It’s old. Really old. And it’s tiresome to see people who are actually somewhat rational about religion become selectively blind when the issue is patriotism.
It’s seems the only real area of commonality that we are going to have, here, Charles, is an agreement that I’m something of a shit.
But after you’ve finished patting yourself on the back, you might want to give your own hands the sniff test.
Charles has already stated that one of his reasons for serving is to defend the very right that I assert.
In return, he has every right to express his contempt for me. I only -wish- he would actually -look- at the very words that he’s using, and just maybe, just maybe think about why he has such a strong reaction.
I’m of a mind with Orwell on this issue. I actually consider myself a patriot, and think a lot of people have managed to confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Orwell on nationalism
Thanks for the Orwell essay Nowiser. It is incredibly interesting.
Another day, another devotee of the “America: love it or leave it” gospel.
Thanks for the link, Nowiser. I remember reading that essay back in high school, and it really struck a chord with me.
No Sadie. I am not a love it or leave it but one who feels that someone so unhappy with the country would be more happy elsewhere. It is sad when one whines and complains about the country but does nothing to change it. At least when I have a difference with the situation I do not just cry and whine “they are not playing nice.”. I give logic and fact to back my views.
I stand for the flag when it goes by in honor of those in the revolutionary war who fought for independence from a tyrant, and those in the world wars who did the same on a global scale. I don’t play semantics with the pledge but say it for what the meaning is. I do however say the pledge in its original way since I will not support government led religion, this being the Judeo-Christian “moral” majority.
Webs nothing was said about “Kicking” anyone out . just an invite to go where the ideals and philosophy fit his. Happiness does not come from staying in a negative mentality.
elwed read what is there and not what you want to see or expect to.
mook I don’t mind their dissenting but trying to force their views as if they are the only way a person should look at them. I do not care if they stand or sit or even lie on the ground if they so desire as long as they don’t try to push others to do the same without being able to give clear reasoning behind their view. “Cause I said so” doesn’t work nor does beating so far around the bush so as not to even be able to see it.
In any case I am done debating with closed minded people. Peace out.
You realize, of course, that one man’s “whining” is another man’s “announcing the problem so it can be addressed.” If everyone shuts up and never says anything then nothing ever changes, especially with social issues that have to be fixed by taking your case to as many people as possible and seeking a consensus opinion in favor of your case.
Congratulations, you’re playing semantics. Semantics is the study of meaning. If you have to qualify your meaning, then you’re playing with semantics. Semantics being something that you wouldn’t want to play at? That’s a semantical nuance too.
Eventually you have nowhere to go because nowhere fits perfectly, we don’t live in perfection where the world works exactly our way, we have to make do with some negative mentality, also because we have other ties (family, friends) and reasons for being in a country (language, work, etc).
Suggesting someone leaves because they don’t fit or may be unhappy is of the same essence as suggesting someone commits suicide or becomes a hermit because they don’t fit in that society. There are often links to others and consequences for your leaving, so you have to put up with some.
Hopefully cou could imagine what an asshat thing it would be to tell someone to commit suicide, telling someone to leave another group of people is in essence the same thing albeit to a lesser extent
Unless I am missing something, not only did you ask nowiser to leave, but you also mentioned the flag and how nowiser should go somewhere where they don’t honor their flag. As if the flag stands for exactly what YOU think it stands for.
And don’t forget this:
Which is a direct contradiction of the following from the post and from other statements from Charles
Sounds like nationalism to me…
I think I can read between the lines enough to see that Charles wants everyone to fall in line with his views but doesn’t want to just come out and say it that way.
In the article that started this thread the student didn’t force her view to not stand on others. Elwed, myself, and others have also not suggested that. So where you come off with that statement is beyond me. No one is making that statement here because we want people to be free to do what they want so long as they don’t hurt others.
And while you might not care if they stand or not (which I think you do) asking someone to explain themselves when they don’t stand, especially a student, is basically asking them to conform. A student shouldn’t have to explain their actions of not standing. Not wanting to should be reason enough.
My bad. It’s not love it or leave it, it’s hate it, so leave it. There’s a subtle semantic difference, but it doesn’t work in your favor.
That’s bordering on the sanctimonious.
We all understand where you, what’s-his-name, and Consi are coming from; it’s just that we disagree with all y’all. For a closed mind, look elsewhere.
What Mook said.
I can only speak for myself, but I have yet to see much logic or fact emanating from your keyboard.
I’ve traveled the world over, and that Shangra-La you hear people talking about is a myth.
I’ve never once encountered a dissenter who has tried to force others not to stand or take part in patriotic rituals, and I doubt you have, either.
A common tactic. Have a nice day.
If you don’t win over the other side in a debate, it’s because the others are closed-minded. And never because your own arguments don’t convince.
You know what the flag REALLY stands for, Charles?
It stands for the right to tell the people in charge that they’re full of shit and we’re not taking it anymore. The right to piss in the punch bowl or dump tea in the harbor. To generally be a pain in the ass.
Sounds like the people refusing to stand are doing a better job at honoring its true meaning that you are.
fish on caffine – i’ll have to try that. Slightly off point some fish can see IR and you can get them to respond to a remote control signal
Nowiser:
Would you care to spell out why a soldier who dies in a war deserves to be honored?
No, but my case for the opposite is simple – not all soldiers are honorable, not all actions taken by soldiers are honorable. There is no reason to honor all soldiers as soldiers. Honor them as people, for real heroism, altruism, nobility, and for sacrifice toward common causes. There’s plenty of people worthy of praise for that.
There’s also plenty of soldiers whose ‘sacrifice’ was made because it was a way out of the frying pan (especially young ones), which, while human and not something I’d condemn, is not something of such merit that it deserves ‘honor’.
‘Soldier’ is not an accurate qualifier of those traits that we ‘honor’, plain and simple.
LJ:
Somehow, it just brings a smile to my face. I don’t know why.
in general:
I consider myself a man of many principles and few morals. Here is one of my principles. People are not ‘free’ like ‘free will’. We are who we are because of others. You can’t know yourself without understanding your relation to your community, and you can’t honor or dishonor a person in the same light. If soldiers are doing things worthy of great disdain or great heroism, and there’s need for blame, blame everyone.
But I don’t make this (or any war) a matter of blame. I don’t know that some wars are beneficial or not. I know the world I want to live in fights wars defensively. If it were me, I would not stand for a flag being used to fuel sentiment which creates a world I do not want to live in. I will dissociate from it.
The tiny text above should be quoted, not coded. Sorry.
Which is exactly what you’re doing, Charlie.
And the pièce de résistance you fling at us is the rather ironic
Well done. *cheer* *cheer*
Ma-a-ate, if ever there was an example of ‘closed minded people’ look no further than the closest mirror.
I know Andrew has gone off somewhere to berate some defenceless children. From memory he said he was ex-marine. I’ll bet he’s thanking his non-existent god he didn’t have to go shit in Iraq for a year or more.
I’ve been reading a blog by this bloke. He writes well – exceptionally well even. I hope he doesn’t get into trouble but he will if ‘they’ find him.
Justin C. Thompson [Jeez , I hope he’s smart enough to use a pseudo]
Location: Baghdad : Iraq
About Me
I am 23 years old and currently deployed to Iraq. I was supposed to get out of the Army on June 27th, 2006. On June 28th, I deployed for a second involuntary tour thanks to the Army’s stop-loss policy.
nowsier: the flag represents them too
Hope everyone enjoyed their MEMORIAL day.
Sure did…
Andrew, I enjoyed mine by making use of my freedom to not recite the Pledge. It felt good not participating in a rote form of shallow patriotism. I’m very grateful that so many men and women fought hard to maintain my freedom to not engage in activities I don’t agree with.
So, how was yours?
Ah, so your Memorial Day is like our ANZAC Day.
Being old and suffering CRAFT disease I can’t recall if I mentioned the last one I went to.
It was a xian controlled service and while the prayers were offered to the invisible man I looked around at the very few others who were looking around and not mouthing the lord’s prayer.
It always seems rather surreal praying to a delusion to save you from the delusions of others.
Apropos, Reasons Why A Young Person Should Not Join the Military…
My friend that was in the Marines said he had a flak jacket but he never had the metal pieces to put in it. The didn’t have enough to go around. And to make matters worse, he was a guard for a General. If bullets were flying at the General, he was supposed to get between the bullets and the General. Without the metal inserts for his fucking flak jacket…
Soldier = Fodder = Bait.
Fuck!
I copied and pasted the article to word and printed off the 21 pages and I’m halfway through it.
Fuck!
I’ve Circled, Underlined, Hi-lighted so many bits it looks like wrapping paper.
I’m continually amazed at how much I don’t know; at how cynical enough I have not been; how gullible I am; how fucking stupid I am.
There is but one saving grace – there billions of people who are unaware of how much they don’t know; at how cynical enough they have not been; how gullible they are; how fucking stupid they are.
Thanks … I think.
You’re welcome. I think
Whats worse than that is if you pay for you’re own dragonskin body armor you don’t get to keep it.
Mattel never produced any part of the M-16 A-1.
i went to silverbrook and i remember them say to stand, i never thought about not standing unitl then. but this article does not say that a week later they told use we had the choice to stand and now i barely ever stand i just think its really sad that pledgeing is nom just a reaction we dont even think about and they tell us to stand out of respect but the pledges means pretty much nothing to us, today my teacher told me if i dont stand for the pledse i will get a detention i will be sitting tomorrow i my right a student. sorry its so long
GotDamn Is It Really That Hard To Show A Little Respect???
The student didn’t have to stand, nor did she have to provide a reason.
I agree, though. The teacher and principal should have shown more respect for the student.