Well, if the wall of seperation is ever damaged enough here in the States to become more or less ineffective at least I know there’s one country in the world that seems to share my mindset about things religious that I could move to.
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Scotland now a “pagan” country.Well, if the wall of seperation is ever damaged enough here in the States to become more or less ineffective at least I know there’s one country in the world that seems to share my mindset about things religious that I could move to. 88 comments to Scotland now a “pagan” country.Leave a Reply |
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Sorry, just couldn’t resist quoting Zarove…sorry “ZAROVE” (he’s too important for any lower case letters to be used) from the Christian Message Board. Concerning gay marriage he writes:
Guess who I suspect has a mental illness!
Starting off with the classic gambit of incessant whining again I see. Oh, I’m so much weaker than you are because I’m a bad man who tosses out insults and barbs! Well, yeah, when I feel they are deserved I do tend to toss out the occasional zinger or two. I try to keep them at least somewhat humorous and I try not to attack until I’ve been attacked, but I’m guilty as charged in that regard. Can’t handle the heat? Stay out of the fucking kitchen.
As for my knowledge of history, I’ve demonstrated that ably enough by providing relevant quotes from various historical figures and cited from which writings said quotes were taken. This is more than you have done as of yet to support a single one of your claims.
You say that my claim that the various witch trials throughout history were based on Christian beliefs is not true, yet every single official record of various trials I have read concerns witchcraft as associating with Satan and Satan is purely a Christian concept.
The Reformation did not convert the people of Europe to orthodox Christianity through preaching and catechisms alone. It was the 300 year period of witch-hunting from the fifteenth to the eighteenth century, what R.H. Robbins called “the shocking nightmare, the foulest crime and deepest shame of western civilization,” that ensured the European abandonment of the belief in magic. The Church created the elaborate concept of devil worship and then, used the persecution of it to wipe out dissent, subordinate the individual to authoritarian control, and openly denigrate women.—Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History.
Closer to home you may find it somewhat enlightening to read the official records from the Salem Witch Trials of 1692-1693. I’m assuming you haven’t or you wouldn’t be making such a ridiculous claim.
As for my understanding of the concept of Separation of Church and State I have already provided an authoritative quote on the issue from the man who coined the phrase in the first place. Which is, again, more than you have done to support your claim that the wall was only meant to protect religion from the state and not vice-versa. It would be very nice if you offered some support for your claims, but instead all you do is whine about how wrong I am and all I can do is insult you.
Let’s put it this way: The spell checker can’t do any more harm than you’re doing yourself. If it wasn’t intelligible before the spell check and it isn’t afterwards then we have lost nothing for the effort. Yet if it even corrected a mere 10% of the issues it would increase legibility ten-fold. Or do you not want your replies to be understandable?
I can and I have already in this thread. Hell, you’ve shown it in your attitude towards homosexuals. What more proof do I need than your own statements used against you?
I do not lie about history and I have provided references to back those statements up. Which, once again, you have failed to do with your claims. If I am lying then provide references which prove it. You have yet to do so and I suspect you’ll continue to avoid doing so. Its so much easier to whine than to argue intelligently.
I will confess that its an assumption on my part that most people use religion as a crutch, but then what would you call relying on a perceived external power to guide you through life instead of your own reasoning ability? Just as a crutch props up someone who is unable to stand on his own two feet due to some weakness or injury, religion props up those folks who would find life overwhelming without their faith. Not that a crutch is a bad thing if you truly need it, but when you don’t need it then it becomes more of a hindrance than a help.
For someone who likes to toss around the idea of logical fallacies so much you sure do seem to engage in them quite a bit yourself. If you had phrased the above so that it was clear that it’s your opinion that I am intolerant rather than a fact then I would have no problem with it. In your opinion I may very well be intolerant, but opinions and facts are two distinct things. If you wish to establish as fact that I am intolerant then please provide some example to back the claim up.
I have no problems with criticism. Hell, I have no problems with being called names. The name of my website is Stupid Evil Bastard for crying out loud in part because I’ve been called as much from the likes of you many times over the years. If I had a problem with criticism then I wouldn’t have named the website what I have.
I’m assuming you meant to say that if I could handle criticism then I wouldn’t make jokes at your expense. That is an incorrect statement. The proper statement would be: If I respected you then I wouldn’t make jokes at your expense. Seeing as I do make jokes at your expense the obvious conclusion one would draw from this should be obvious even to you.
Remained respectful? No you haven’t. You’ve called me an immoral liar who has no concern for the truth among other choice statements. Granted, you haven’t used any naughty words, but then it doesn’t take naughty words to be disrespectful or to call people names. The tone of your replies alone is pretty insulting to anyone with half a brain. Have I made some cheap shots? Certainly, but it’s a sin you’ve committed yourself so I see no reason to feel remorse over it. What was that golden rule again? Oh yes, “do unto others.
“1: I am not Shel. So drop that line.”
Hi, my name is ZAROVE3. In the past, on Outlaw Star.Net, I went by other all cap-names that spelled just as bad as I did and often shared the same logic or backed myself up.
Thus SHEL = ZAROVE.
“2: No matter how often peopel form OLS claim me to be stupid, and evil, and other things, Nothign will be served by it aside fom further pain inflicted, which i your goal.”
I’m not saying (nor anyone else on OLS.Net) that you’re stupid, evil and ‘other things’, you’re the one who keeps proving you are those things.
And you still haven’t changed over five years on the net, have you?
Of course you still won’t listen to what anyone says and still be an ass online, I bet.
“3: Edotors and assistance staff helped out my articles to-gather.”
……….
…..
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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Oh my God (Uh-oh, I’m using God’s name in vain!).
That’s too funny!
You should go into comedy, Zarove.
Just keep telling those half-assed stories Zarove, I don’t think these people are believing you anymore.
Yes, that whole Journalist thing was a story told to OLS.Net members by Zarove. There are other ones, but I brought that one up due to his spelling.
“4: Nothing I have said in any way is affressed by you, only another cheap shot, which is how you tend to work. I mean relaly you actively use Google searhc engines to gind my last posts, and then post where I have posted just to harrass me, come off it.
As tot he cheap shot at a spellign error, you can shove it.”
Just letting the people be informed that they should not take anything you say (or should that be everything you say online and offline?) at face value.
You have never had anything to bring to the table and stop using crutches. You keep using them here and people will get sick and tired of you here like they did on many other boards.
I’m also concerned about other people online that you often harass. The more they know about you, the less likely they won’t be upset over you or won’t even talk to you.
Two, I would like to quote myself five years ago that you still haven’t disproved about yourself.
“Zarove: Whine, whine, whine….”
That is so cool that Scotland’s a Pagan country! I love Scotland, and I love Pagans, so this is really neat. Dammit, why do other countries get to be so cool while the U.S. is so puritanical?
I reckon Christianity is much better than paganism. Paganism SUCKS! Chrisianity is the truth, not some stuff that was made up!
It’s all made up sweetheart – just like your fellow reindeers, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donder and Blitzen.
And please don’t sign up under the Ozzie flag.
I don’t want others to think we’ve got fuckwits in Australia too.
I keep telling them they’re all in the USA.
For the purists – I forgot about Rudolf the red-nosed Reindeer; he was added to the line-up 117 years later by Robert L May in 1939.
That has to be one of the most unintentionally funny comments a drive-by’er has made in a long time.
According to whom is it the truth? By what standard is it absolute?
Wow, thx for quoting Zarove so much in your replies. I couldnot read his ramblings in one go
Glad that others have the patience to do the work for me….
Why can we not all get along i mean i personally belive all gods exist and have power only over there folowers so let us not fight over whos god is bigger
sorry for any misspeled words im only 14
Hey I have done more reading on this thread and some history…really just to double check and i would like to point out to ZAROVE…if he has the mentall cupacity to understand me that christianty is responsable for many wars and alot of blood shed…The Crusades for example were a series of religious battles for control of the Holly Land… also the witch trails wich i had famially burned in that so i think i would know the truth about it…and as for blood on pagan hands all depends how you difien what a pagan is…like norse greek or egyptian…well lets look at them all
1. the Egyptians they only shed as much blood as any country really wars,exicutions ect
2. the greeks the did all that stuff to but they also sacrificed live stock nothing more that i know of
3. norse(im also adding germanic brittish and gaulic for this one) were a peoples shrouded in mistery but when you look at what we do know is that they were a waring peoples it probabley had nothing to do with religion seeing as they were fighting each other on the terms of sacrifice if it happend (wich it probabley did based on other relegious belifes) it was most likely restricted to livestock and if humans they were probably willing (none of that Aztec sacrifice fanatism)
now sacrifice its self was not an evil it was a thing antcient did to insure the gods heard what the wished.
unless im mistaken the jews sacrificed live stock as well now the reason christians didnt from what i see was because jesus was there sacfrifice he did it so his people wouldnt have to…
now if i had to pick bettween christians and pagans i would pick pagans… i have personally been persecuted by many christians and it has made me bitter and cold towards them im trying to work on it though…
im only 15 so sorry for misspeled words
yeah im not 14 im 15 misstyped that above
please boot Zarove hes getting on my nerves i mean he actually is claiming that pagans killed more witches than christians im mean fuck the witches were pagan…
its sadenns me that i,m smarter than someone probabley 3 times my age
Well, if nothing else, at least you’re accommodating David. Though it sounds like you might be a Neil Gaiman fan. Read American Gods recently?
Or Terry Pratchett’s Small Gods?
I read that Zarove i gues said hes a journalist for a Tennessee newspaper…..
…well im from Tennessee and im not aware of anything he has done and i dont think i would need his name to tell if he writes for it i’ll just look if a can see alot of bullshit coming from one journalist.
no i havent read those but i am religiously searching right now and looking at all sorts of biliefs and im a bit of a history buff…
sorry i didn’t reply sooner i was reading the thread some more
oh and i was ither asleep or gone today my days and nights are all fucked up
oh and i would like to point out the simularities of norse pagan and christianity
first
the sacrifice of odin a norse god that sacrificed himself for the runes
and of course we all know jesus
they both were resurected
second the norse pagan hel was a place for the dead that did not go to valhala
and of course the christian hell
remember norse hel one l.
oh and one more thing if you guys want laugh type in “harry potter lures kids to witchcraft”
there are a lot of crazy sites my favorite is “thecrossroads” or something like that
it is a big reminder of christianitys cult beginings…and its a good laugh
ok ive been meaning to say something that i gues everyone else over looked the comment that pagans treated wemon worse than christians is a tottal lie the pagans belived in goddeses as well as gods and in pagan sociaty (or atleast the germanic helenic egyptian and britsh) there were as many queens in power as kings for instance queen Boudica(yea i probabley misspeld that) a celtic quen lead a pretty sucsesfull rebelion against the roman empire the romans were trying to countroll brittian and because of this queens revolt although short lived inspired the celts to hold there land this rebelious attitud made the romans leave becaus the “the need for military ocupation was to costy”
also note worthy that no none pagans were ever able to lead sucsessfull campian untill the saxones turned christian wich they had already invaded before that time
one more note worthy thing is the down fall of the romans began after they accepted christianty…
…just saying
and ive don some thinking and came to the conclusion that you guys are as bad as christians all both of you do is bash and its not doing my nerves any good so this is my last entry
Don’t let the door slam into your butt on the way out…
hextuple-dipping, david?
As a Scots Pagan, I dislike seeing these sorts of vitriolic debates. Whilst we see proselytising as profoundly offensive and rude, we also acknowledge that other people may experience divinity in different ways, and for this reason, we are very tolerant of other religions.
I personally disagree with a lot of Christian views, but not all. I like the promotion of peace and harmony, as well as the promotion of a stable familiar environment. However, at the same time, I feel these are promoted in the wrong way (denouncing homosexuality/sex before marriage) and think many values of the religion are outdated and based upon an either perverted or confused interpretation of the bible. I acknowledge there are many different Christianities but believe that anyone who truly understands their religion, understands that the stories are purely metaphorical.
As a Pagan, I believe that the divine is manifested in Nature and that deity takes many forms of Nature. I don’t see the need for a middle-man to cause a storm or flood. Nature can give life and take life, which is why, irrespective of your own beliefs, I believe it should be respected.
Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi ‘s nach fhaic. (Great health to you every day that I see you and every day that I don’t) =)
Kya.
Some Christians do promote these things but they are hardly unique to Christianity. They are simply human values to which Christianity (when convenient) lays claim.
What happened to critical thought and literacy? They sure don’t make themselves known here.
It would help if you could be a bit more specific as to who and what you’re addressing your question to.
I found this by searching for Paganism in Scotland. I must comment, because of one comment that I read on the first page kind of…sparked my anger.
First off I would like to say I am a Pagan, and believe this religion is a wonderful, peaceful religion.
So the comment I read was about Pagans saying Christians were liars, decietful, and hypocrites, then going to say “I am a Chroistians, and personally do not like modfern Paganism presisely because the philosophy doesnt work and is hypocritical.”
Personally if you ARE a Christian then should you follow the whole “Thou Shall Not Judge.” “Thou Shall be Merciful.” “Thou Shall not Perscute Others.”
Calling another religion hypocrital..well is hypocrital against your religion and is..just personally rude in its self.
I love my religion and I respect other peoples religions as well. I have many friends whom are Christians and also Pagans. We all get a long wonderfully, and that is how it should be.
Though I know that SOME Christians are..really rude and have lost the religion its self. Saying God hates Fags, Lezbos, ect. Personally whom are you to say who God hates? God is forever merciful, he forgives all. No one has the right to judge whom he hates, whom goes to hell, whom is this or that. NO ONE but obviously your merciful God. Christians scream and point fingers, when this goes against their religion.
THEN there is the actualy True Christians whom know what I am talking about, and says the same things. I will say I respect them and their religion and they do the same with mine.
Paganism is a nature based religion..Though we worship many Gods, I personally believe that there is a MAIN SOURCE that all the Gods/Goddesses answer too. But that is just me.
I love this religion I feel free, not bound down. I tried the church, Christian, Bible deal. But it was not me. Paganism helped me find myself, and I love this religion.
I am still a little new to it, and have not found myself fully, but to know what religion I belong too has released some of the chains around my soul.
There is many different forms of Paganism…Norse Pagans..Wicca…Pictiwica…ect. I have not found a certain one..so I call myself plain old Pagan.
That is all..Just wanted to be heard LOL.
If you look at what Zarove wrote, you guess hes a member of the Westboro Baptist Church (allthough hes from Tennessee), hes a mentally ill guy with an IQ of 45 and is a fucking jerk without a spell checker who writes sentences like this: tyuo si waht eye meen!1!!1!
Christian fundimentalists like him should be banned on Elba. Then nuke em. Or call the mafia and plan a hit on him. And I especially hate him because he talked bad about my religion: Asatru or overall paganism.
And here I thought natural selection was the most thorough way to judge a characters fitness. No need turning it into something artificial because of being an ass. On a side note I caution all to think about their anger before violent speech emerges. It really isn’t that far before you become the mirror image of your enemy.
What Psychromorbidus said. I try not to wish harm on those who disagree with me, I just hope their open enough that they might change their mind, or at least develop some tolerance for other ideas.
As you know, i am ophelia, i’m a 13 year old girl.i was a sikh, but, i converted into a PAGAN!What is it with everyone!? Everyone is entiltled to there own opinion, but what everyone said is outragous, appauling, unfair and plain DAM RITE RUDE!!!!! Now i speak for pagans and christians, when i say this! How can you call pagans and christians evil, when all of you’s are bitchin about us! I work hard, am a bright student and passionate worshiper, im i evil?do i do what i want?Do i not make statemaents about my religion? I am going to study politics and become prime minister! and when i do, i am going to show the world the truth about pagans, and when i do, remmember the name:DEVKI OPHELIA KAUR!
It upsets me to read what everyone’s said. i respect every single religion from christianity to sikhism-i may not agree with them but at least i respect them!You lot are absolutely dispicable! Feel free to say what you want but hear me when i say I AM PROUD TO BE A PAGAN!
Good for you, ophelia. I think everyone here respects your right to believe whatever you want. The problem comes when certain religions try to force their views on everyone- for instance, with Christians in the US trying to get their Biblical beliefs about biology into public schools.
And there is a difference between respecting a person and respecting a religion. I respect no religion, but I respect every person, until that person gives me a reason to not respect them.
Good luck to you, whatever you believe.
Zarove’s statement that women had no equality and suffered under paganism in ancient times is thoroughly questionable. Classical authors frequently mention the social freedoms of Celtic and Nordic women, their ability to divorce, own land, trade, and even sometimes lead armies. The so called northern barbarians generally seem to have held their women in high esteem.
Christianity however saw the dawn of social decline for women, infringement of freedom, and generally anti-female prejudice not helped by mysoginist statements from Paul of Tarsus and the Popes.
It is not religion the hates it is induviduals. People’s across the world have their own spirituality, whether it is in religious form or not. Yes there has been alot of hate spread through religion, but it is not because of religion; it is because of people. Iam a Pagan, I have nothing against Christianity, Buddisum, or any other religion, what I do have a problem with is people, not there spiritual beleife. there has been viloance through out all religions, not just one, and this violance is not brought by a god or goddess, it is brought by man and only man. Why is it people still live in the past? Why do people still hold on to what has happened, and not what is happening? Pagans, Jews, Christains, Buddest, Muslims, Athesits, Agnostics, and many more have all lived through hatered, and still are, only becasue people hold on to the past and cant seem to get over it. So what happens because of this; only more hatred. It is not a religions fault witches were burned, it is not a religions fault to hate other religions, it is a persons, or peoples fault. I have never seen a religion get up and hate people, or kill people; I have only seen people do this. I choose not to be a part of any religion, only because I do not want to be. I do know what it is like to be critisized for my beliefes, but it does not bother me. I dont prech my spirituality; why because it is mine. So for all those people who still linger in the past let it go, it will only comsume you if you dont, then you will never be happy or understand that everyone person in the world has the right to beleave what they want, even if they go to church do you honestly think that they have the exact same spiritual beleave as the person sitting next to them? Probably not.I have studied history enough to know it is no religion that hates, only people.
I’d argue that religion shares a lot of the blame. There are plenty of examples in most religions of rules and proclamations that give rise and justification to the hate you bemoan in your comment, Aveya.
Which isn’t to say humans wouldn’t find other excuses to hate if religion were to dry up and blow away, but to suggest that religion is blameless for the hate is to ignore much about them.
Okay, let me give you guys a piece of my mind. Some of you are taking about Paganism as a horrible thing. Not that I have anything against public opinion, but frankly, you seem to be talking about a subject that obviously some of you don’t know what you’re talking about. First, I happen to be Pagan. Second, I saw that someone made a crack on here about Paganism having more blood on it’s hands than Christianity. T_T. I’m sorry, but that’s just ridiculous. Ever heard of “the witch trials”? Well let me tell you about it. So, SO many pagans and Jews were targeted (mostly Pagans) and subjected to torture such as dismemberment, a pork roast, drowning, the Judas cradle(look it up), beating, raping, tearing off private parts, and so many other things. If they confessed to witchcraft, they were burned. I do not deny that Paganism has blood on it’s hands, but more that that which Christianity has done to us? Third, what business does anyone have on what we do? It’s none of their concern, so please, stop giving the impression that you are all afraid of Paganism, because it’s quite pointless. I guess your love and tolerance religion is not really being followed very practically, is it? I have nothing against Christianity, just some of the people in it.
Dear Goddess, Raven, i thank you very much on your say in the matter, and your explination on true Paganism. but i still have yet to see someone have a proper say in the argument.
1)I am studying Wicca, a form of Paganism. It is not a violent religion. There are no blood sacrafices, no orgies, no violence at all. Something near all Wiccans believe is “An ye harm none, do as thee will” meaning DO NOT HARM ANY OTHER PERSON OR EVEN ANIMAL. does this mean you have to be vegitarian? no. does it mean you have to respect everything you take from? yes. definite yes.
2) I thank all of you defending these Earth based religions, i do apreciate your open-mindedness and willingness to care about the truth and wellbeing of other people. But i do ask that you try to understand what you are defending. Also, there is no need to fire at other religions.
Christianity has its flaws. All religions do. For most forms of Paganism, those flaws are saught to be fixed. If it works, it is repeated, if it doesnt, the tradition is given up. While Christianity was responsible for the Burning Times, they do not still go around burning people at the stake now do they? If someone chooses Christianity as their Guide to Spirituallity and the Otherworld, then so be it. it is a choice. As long as they are not causing harm to others or themselves, no religion is looked down apon, in my eyes and the eyes of many others who call themselves Pagan and Wiccan